Tubes or solid state...are tubes worth the extra money?

Extra money, this is all extra money!

You can throw just as much into solid state as you can tubes, easy.
 
I need both for my bi-amped systems:

Flea watt tube amps for HE full range drivers paired with powerful ss amps for the less efficient woofers
 
Never going back
 

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Tubes are simple, I refuse to own things which I cannot repair. (with a few exceptions) experience has shown me that I have no business trying to repair solid state amps. I usually end up with more problems than I started with, and I spend enough money replacing things over and over, that I could have just bought a tube amp and made it work.... I understand the basic tube circuits and can efficiently diagnose and repair them without colateral damage. So for me it was the cheapest way to get great sound. But that's just like my opinion man...
 
I am not fully "tubed" yet, but am leaning in that general direction. :)

For my desktop system (computer), I am using one of those little Chi-fi amps, a TubeCube | 7 (same as the APPJ) that uses a pair of EL84s and a 12AX7. I recently rolled in new-issue Mullards to replace the stock tubes, and it sounds quite good. It is the best I've ever heard on my desktop, even if the amp isn't all that good.

My main rig only has a tube preamp, a C-J with a single gain stage powered by Mullard M8080/CV4058 tubes. Very nice, and is surpasses the Halfer it replaced, as you'd expect. I currently use the Nelson Pass-designed Stasis power amp (Nak PA-7). Pass is known to make solid state amps that sound very tube-like. Some of his designs, like the Aleph series, were based on Class A and generate all sorts of heat and use a lot of power (as in, 2x to 3x as much as the amp's power output rating). You'll be best friends with a large electric bill. ;) The Pass Labs amps of today are very expensive; there are actually higher-end tube amps which are less expensive than some of the Pass monoblocks! If my amp is already quite good, how would a tube amp change that? I'm not into making expensive sideways moves, nor do I want to own an amp as a status symbol.

But that brings up a point. Some modern tube amps are known to have none of that familiar "tubey" sound, and nearly come closer to resembling solid state power amps. I have heard some of them at AXPONA and have no real opinion on them, due to unfamiliar speakers, the music, the room, etc. (Don't get me wrong--they all sounded fantastic, but I could only compare two amps in my own system to make a decision.) Point here is that the best solid state and tube amps do not have that much differential between them, as they did in the past. I think it is more about deciding what sounds best to us in our own systems, vs. worrying whether it is tubed or SS. As for vintage and near-vintage (maybe a dozen to 25 years old), those designs may be more of what we are after when we think of tubes.
 
I didn't spend more on my tube equipment I spent less, when I joined this sit, I was using modern day equipment
like NAD and Conrad Johnson. I started buying the older tube stuff and spent much less, I did have to learn to
restore the tube amps but the end result I like it much better. Just wait, something will come up at the price point
you want then grab it!
 
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I have been listening to a Pioneer SX-1250 for many years and loved it. It has been restored. Plenty of power to drive my speakers(Klipsch). Anyway, I recently bought a Fisher400 that has been restored and sonically, to my ears, there is no comparison. The Fisher wins in a big way. I can't describe the difference sonically but it's there and the one thing for sure is the bass is tighter and sounds "cleaner". The biggest difference is in music with lots of instruments or strong vocals/acoustic. The SX1250 is a fine receiver but I don't need a lot of power with the speakers I have so I'll never not own tubes again.
 
In 1976 I was 19 years old. I was a musician and a person who cared about fidelity and sound. I walked into the home of a friend of my father's and was completely blown away by the sound of his hifi system. There was soundstage. Their was airy-ness. There was fat, smooth bass that was also tight-sounding. I had never heard anything like it before in my life. To be fair, solid state technology was somewhat new and unrefined at that time but the Phase Linear 700B my band used for the PA was remarkably crisp and clear and powerful. And yet it was no competition for the McIntosh system in that house. None whatsoever.
 
I have had SS since the mid 70's. Mostly Pioneer Silverface stuff, Spec-1 and 2 equipment. When McIntosh was doing their amplifier clinics back in the day I brought them in for a test. After the test at full power the engineer just took a ruler and drew a flat line across the distortion graph on the bottom line. He told me that the distortion was below the residual of his test equipment. He also said he was impressed and didn't know the Japanese could make stuff like this. These amps have served me faithfully for the last 40 years.

What changed my mind was I picked up an old H.H. Scott integrated tube amp. It just sounded different, better I guess. I think there is something to be said for the gentle distortion introduced in tube gear. I have had crazy thoughts of putting all my SS equipment up for sale and concentrate on the highest quality tube equipment I can get by my sweetie.
 
There is no generally valid answer to your question. Music listening has many subjective aspects and discusing about those aspects is like doing it about philosophy, religion or politics. People arrive to conclusions that are valid within their subjetivity. To find an answer in your case the ideal situation without spending lots of money would be to locate nearby people with different types of gear and sample as many as you can, and eventually arrive to a conclusion that may satisfy your curiosity.
If you have a "hi end" audio shop in your neighborhood they will usually let you bring your own music in and cue it up and let you listen to it. They would also switch out different components that you would want to listen to. In other words they will bend over backwards to let you listen to stuff to make a sale and give you a good discount if you ask. cheers.
 
It depends on the individual units in question, and upon your own hearing and preferences. Both can certainly excel.

A Luxman rep was asked about what their tube gear offered over their very reputable SS gear. His reply was "that last measure of midrange liquidity". Now, he is talking about gear ranging from $4K to $40K per piece. That was his opinion when cost is basically no object. It certainly doesn't apply universally, and wouldn't necessarily apply to even the Luxman gear he was referencing to someone else's ears.

For nearly every generalization, there are thousands of examples, and thousands of counter-examples.
 
Sidney Corderman, McIntosh's chief engineer for the better part of 6 decades was once asked the question which was better, tubes or solid state. After a short pause, his answer was, "If both are designed properly, they should sound the same!" :)

Speaking for myself, and FWIW, after much comparing - both long term listening and instantaneous A/B switching between tube and SS amplifiers - and 2, used with both horn speakers as well as modern type acoustic suspension and 3, using all different types of music including test tones - I am beginning to come around to Mr. Corderman's statement - with the caveat that all equipment in my comparisons is McIntosh.

Cannot comment on any sonic differences between tube & solid state equipment of other manufacturers.

Also, some feel the preamplifier having a greater overall imprint on the system than the amplifier; therefore more critical for the "tube sound" than the main. On this point, I have not yet come to any firm conclusions.

Just a few of my own observations.
Carry on...
tiphat.gif
 
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"Are tubes worth the extra money?"

No.

But I am disadvantged by the fact that I am an EE. (I have designed/built both topologies - come from the era, so to speak :( ) As said above, most of the preference for tube sound; comes from the fact that they produce a 'nice' kind of audible distortion (not all distortion is discordant!). E.g. musically, 2nd harmonic distortion is adding a small percentage of everything an octave higher. That might make most music sound "richer - warmer'. Etc.

In practice much depends on the execution of either topology. Comparing 'tubes' to 's.s' per se: Both topologies are quite capable of reproducing input material unadulterated, as in no audible difference. Whether that is the case with practical commercial equipment is another matter. Thus a general reply to a general question - impossible to qualify in general.
Ah the EE's quandry, SS stomps the shit out of tube's specifications but yet so many people embrace the "tube sound" or more correctly the sound from tubes. How can your training and years of schooling explain such a thing? There must be a way to quantify and replicate it using modern technology. Perhaps, not.
Another way to look at it is that a tube is more like an instrument than a device. If you consider that tubes are essentially hand made with proprietary designs and materials thus elevating some brands over others and also making vintage tubes from the days when they were state of the art even more relevant. Transistors and ICs are made by machines by the billions with the only human involved is the designer.
A music instrument creates all kinds of harmonics. The ones that are classics have the best sound quality which includes their harmonics. Those sound qualities can not be duplicated no matter how closely they are copied. An extreme example that everyone is familiar with is the Stradivarius violin. Mullard tubes were made in far huger numbers than violins but i think the same pride in workmanship applies. And i believe this workmanship is reflected in the sound quality at least enough to set it apart from the other tubes.
if you closely compare the genuine Mullards say an el34 to other brands you will note that everything in the tube is correctly aligned. If something was not aligned the tube was rejected. Of course the factory would insist that the assembly techs were of sufficient dexterity to be nearly flawless in their technique. For them quality was a serious issue. There was circulating on the internet a propaganda video regarding the new Mullard factory in Blackburn from back in the 50s. It was very interesting to see. I am not sure if the current manufacturers have the same dedication to produce tubes with the same strict quality control that they did back in the golden age of vacuum tubes. I now reallize that when things are made by actual people they have an added value that can create a better product. No doubt this is also true for SS amps that one can get at "best buy" vs a much more labor intensively made Krell.
So, tubes "worth the money"...Definitely YES! IMO, they are a bargain.
 
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What? Extra Money?? Tubes will take it and more... That's why we're all here on line to fix our gear because we don't have extra money. Tubes are fun and addicting. You'll soon be saying " I wish I had more money."
 
Top SS and top tubes do not sound the same. Not even close.

Vintage SS sound is often mistaken for warmth when in fact it is compression that is rounding the peaks and rolling the bass.

Tube rectified amps have soundstage and imaging in spades. Only the faster SS and VFET's come close and not very close at that.

Interestingly, I have found solid state rectified tube amps do not have the same magical soundstage and imaging as tube rectified amps.

The best imaging amps I've ever heard, at any price or age- are the VAC Statement iQ tube monoblocks. And they're SS rectified.

Regards,
Gordon.
 
I've had and heard both SS and tube that were outstanding.

I've had SS and tube that were nothing exciting.

I think both types of vintage should be properly restored before any comparisons can be made.

A proper restoration on a good SS will bring the price (value) close to tube price.
 
A lot of the answer lies with the speakers you are driving. It can be a magical transformation, nothing special, or a big steaming pile.
 
I don't think anyone asked what your budget is and what do you plan on using the stereo for.

Do you need a lot of power for loud music or are you listening to normal level classical?

What speakers are you going to use it on?
 
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