Sibilance / disortion

Nowadays I use nearly always a nude 0,2/0,7mil needle. It just does everything good. Low distortion, very good freq response, no IGD, tracks overall fine, not fuzzy. Also I have several of them.
 
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i have 0 sibilance/ distortion. there is a difference between a good setup and a perfect setup, a good setup will get sibilance, a perfect setup will not have these issues simple as that, if you own a table with no VTA adjust you arent going to ever get rid of this problem , unless you get lucky with a cart height, The vta in a sl1200, you can dial out sib carefully with a record playing, looks like a slight angle with the mount being just a slight listening adjustment higher, removes sib, some of the $500 range belt tables i see from the new manuf, actually come slightly higher on the cart end, and thats it, thats what you get unless you are a tweaker that will make a shim like some of us would, all sib and distortion are complaints from tables with no vta adjust, so the cart even gets blamed, like the ortofon red with the project debut. you can see the bad vta angle, its not the cart, its not the table, its lack of adjustments like anti skate? VTA, trusting premounted cart align, no weight markings on the counter weight and guessing on these adjustments, how much diff can these adjustment make with speakers hooked to a source thats almost invisible and needs to be adjusted perfectly by listening? impossible
 
. . . I guess the real point of this is for my own information but also others': is sibiliance and distortion / mistracking being accepted by vinyl enthusiasts? I don't mean those with AT-LP60s or Crosleys, but you, reading this. . .
I don't think those issues are acceptable, but the only times I've experienced them proved to be stylus-related, normally when trying out an after-market or NOS stylus (though I once had a Grado Green1 stylus start having issues after 6 months; the dealer confirmed no excessive wear or build-up of gunk, but it just wasn't performing; a new stylus solved the problem). Even the $29 Audio Technica CN5625AL (purchased brand new, when my local dealer had just gotten in a fresh shipment from Audio Technica), with its .7 mil bonded conical tip tracking at 2.25 grams, was free of those problems. At present, I use an M97xE on a Rega RP3, and there is no hint of mistracking, distortion, or excessive sibilance (and this has been true of all four N97xE styli I have used so far in this combination).
 
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My Pioneer PL-540/ML440a combo is anything but high end, but I have not experienced sibilance on any of my records, ever. :dunno:
 
i have 0 sibilance/ distortion. there is a difference between a good setup and a perfect setup, a good setup will get sibilance, a perfect setup will not have these issues simple as that, if you own a table with no VTA adjust you arent going to ever get rid of this problem , ...

With all due respect, Sir, my experience with my tt (no VTA adjustment) seems to suggest that this statement is not accurate. No sibilance ever, at least to my ears.
 
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With all due respect, Sir, my experience with my tt (no VTA adjustment) seems to suggest that this statement is not accurate. No sibilance ever, at least to my ears.
a i stated in the post context, "unless you get lucky with cart height" that would be you.
 
With all due respect, Sir, my experience with my tt (no VTA adjustment) seems to suggest that this statement is not accurate. No sibilance ever, at least to my ears.

Sibilance is needle cut to most part, the rest is if something is very wrong.
 
I keep reading about sibilance/IGD distortion problems and I certainly believe folks experience them, but in 40-odd years of playing vinyl I've yet to personally experience either. Just lucky? I dunno.
 
I keep reading about sibilance/IGD distortion problems and I certainly believe folks experience them, but in 40-odd years of playing vinyl I've yet to personally experience either. Just lucky? I dunno.

Just precise. :rolleyes:

In your set up.
 
Perhaps so. I've always tried to take some care in getting it all right. A good protractor is your friend and using an arm that allows for VTA adjustments and such sure healps as well.

IGD in LPs are more common in my experience, due mostly to previous user created damage. :dunno:
 
I guess the real point of this is for my own information but also others': is sibiliance and distortion / mistracking being accepted by vinyl enthusiasts? I don't mean those with AT-LP60s or Crosleys, but you, reading this.

I have heard needledrops here that exhibit mistracking. I read about cartridges or styli that have sibilance, though they are being discussed as if it a minor drawback.
To me, it is completely unacceptable, and it boggles my mind how some others who listen to vinyl cannot hear it. I've even purchased LPs that were played on lesser styli that are now permanently damaged, and the sellers can't even hear the damage. To cover that half of the equation, I try to buy new sealed vinyl whenever possible.

The raw truth of it all--only the "line contact" type of stylus tip can fit in the high frequency grooves, especially as you get towards those inner grooves. (These types may have names like MicroRidge, Micro Line, Van den Hul, Replicant, Shibata, etc..) A conical or elliptical are too "fat" and will mistrack, since the "waves" cut into the record are smaller/tighter than the styli trying to track them. Likewise, too much effective tip mass will not allow the stylus to accelerate fast enough, and also cause mistracking, as will a suspension that is too stiff. There are illustrations online that show the various shapes, and their advantages.

And never rule out the fact that even with the best tracking cartridge on the planet, so much used vinyl today is unacceptably worn, and will sound distorted despite what is being used to play it back with. I see this more now today than I did 20 and 30 years ago. The vinyl can look clean; you cannot see groove wear (aka groove burn) without a microscope.

The best tracking cart I've heard in the very recent past is from DS Audio, which uses an optical generator for the sound. Internally it uses LEDs, a mirror and light sensors to create the electrical signal; since there is no magnet, iron or coil attached to the stylus, it has extremely low moving mass. The system I heard it through was not to my liking, but the vinyl playback was unlike anything else I heard at the show. Too bad it is so darned expensive, as you have to buy their specific phono stage that will also power the LEDs in the cartridge.
 
Am I correct in thinking that sibilance on some records is actually inherent in the recording, thus not due to stylus type, inaccurate set-up, or groove damage in used records? The original 'Trinity Sessions' by The Cowboy Junkies on the Cooking Vinyl label being a prime example
 
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Am I correct in thinking that sibilance, to a greater or les on some records is actually inherent in the recording, thus not due to stylus type, inaccurate set-up, or groove damage in used records? The original 'Trinity Sessions' by The Cowboy Junkies on the Cooking Vinyl label being a prime example
sib occurs at the frequency where the SSSSS is, in the human voice or , any song with lots of SSS in the lyrics, will show sib the most, it is somewhat related to the cart stylus design, my stanton 500 mkII is known for a lot of sib, i think it is partially due to a stiff larger design cantilever that requires a higher tracking force,, with too light of a tracking force, a vta angle that puts the tip of the needle leaned a touch forward can help, also adding a half gram to the tracking force can help, but i really dont see this problem often with a good setup, this is from my listening and comparing, of course you will get 100 diff opinions.
 
sib occurs at the frequency where the SSSSS is, in the human voice or , any song with lots of SSS in the lyrics, will show sib the most, it is somewhat related to the cart stylus design, my stanton 500 mkII is known for a lot of sib, i think it is partially due to a stiff larger design cantilever that requires a higher tracking force,, with too light of a tracking force, a vta angle that puts the tip of the needle leaned a touch forward can help, also adding a half gram to the tracking force can help, but i really dont see this problem often with a good setup, this is from my listening and comparing, of course you will get 100 diff opinions.

I have SSSSibilance with some of my LPs, though the majority of are just fine. It's no big deal though and only intrudes unduly on a few of the LPs that do exhibit it. BTW I have a Hana EH, which I like to think is set up pretty good, I can't detect any inner groove distortion with records that are in good shape with this cartridge, The query I have is... if sibilance is in the actual recording then surly no matter how good one's set-up is, you just ain't going to eliminate it?

I'm no expert in this this stuff, so would welcome some thoughts from folk more knowledgeable than myself?.

Just had a copy of Roy Wood/s 'Boulders' come in this morning's mail so am off to give it a spin or two.:music:
 
Certainly if there is sibilance on the master, it will also come through regardless of setup / alignment, stylus, etc. What is being referred to here specifically is sibilance or distortion that is not present on the record (i.e. testing with a known good copy of a great recording that wasn't previously damaged) but is being introduced by the cartridge / turntable. It is possible that the phono stage, speakers (?), and other parts of the system can affect this as well, but I am not interested in discussing that here.
 
To me, it is completely unacceptable, and it boggles my mind how some others who listen to vinyl cannot hear it. I've even purchased LPs that were played on lesser styli that are now permanently damaged, and the sellers can't even hear the damage. To cover that half of the equation, I try to buy new sealed vinyl whenever possible.

The raw truth of it all--only the "line contact" type of stylus tip can fit in the high frequency grooves, especially as you get towards those inner grooves. (These types may have names like MicroRidge, Micro Line, Van den Hul, Replicant, Shibata, etc..) A conical or elliptical are too "fat" and will mistrack, since the "waves" cut into the record are smaller/tighter than the styli trying to track them. Likewise, too much effective tip mass will not allow the stylus to accelerate fast enough, and also cause mistracking, as will a suspension that is too stiff. There are illustrations online that show the various shapes, and their advantages.

And never rule out the fact that even with the best tracking cartridge on the planet, so much used vinyl today is unacceptably worn, and will sound distorted despite what is being used to play it back with. I see this more now today than I did 20 and 30 years ago. The vinyl can look clean; you cannot see groove wear (aka groove burn) without a microscope.

Thank you for this - it's what I had come to assume based on my experiences so far. It seems it all comes down to stylus: tip shape, mass, suspension, and cantilever.

Regarding groove wear: I think it is important to get to a point with your system where you can be certain if you hear any distortion when playing a new-to-you record, it is present in the grooves. I feel that I have attained that now, and can focus on critically auditioning records both already in my collection as well as new additions, ensuring that they make the cut.
 
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