Dunkirk

I’m not sure this is true. If the battle of Britain had gone a little differently and the Luftwaffe had been able to establish air superiority over the channel, the Germans would have been in with a chance. By 1940 capital ships were pretty much obsolete (witness the Repulse/Prince of Wales debacle) – the RN without the RAF would have been very, very vulnerable. I suspect the Free World in general and Britain in particular may owe more to Goring’s incompetence than they would care to recognize.

And Hitler's insistence on launching his invasion of Russia at the same stupid time as Napoleon. Had he invaded a bit sooner, and managed to overrun Lenningrad and Moscow, things might have looked quite a bit different - even if they ultimately had to withdraw from the ruins.
 
I’m not sure this is true. If the battle of Britain had gone a little differently and the Luftwaffe had been able to establish air superiority over the channel, the Germans would have been in with a chance. By 1940 capital ships were pretty much obsolete (witness the Repulse/Prince of Wales debacle) – the RN without the RAF would have been very, very vulnerable. I suspect the Free World in general and Britain in particular may owe more to Goring’s incompetence than they would care to recognize.

The Germans lacked the shipping and organization to cross the channel. Look at the enormous logistical and military effort it took for the Allies to the invade Normandy in 1944. And with command of both air and sea to boot. And with lots of previous amphibious invasion experience. The Germans in 1940 hadn't a clue.
 
Had the Luftwaffe concentrated on British airfields instead of the cities,the RAF would have been neutralised.
The RAF began the bombing[its on the record]and Germany started their campaign.
Internal politics within the Nazi hierarchy interfered with tactical and strategic planning.
So not just the size of their enemies resources which defeated them,but their own inner contradictions helped defeat them also.
Doomed from the start
 
Yes ive read all those titles you mention and quite a few others concerning that period.
l would mention a couple of fairly recent ones you may or may not have read...
Nicholson Baker-Human Smoke
A History of Bombing-Sven Linquvist
During our sailing days,my wife and i saw many decaying and restored boats used in the operation to rescue soldiers and quite a few have been restored faithfully.On the open sea they seem frail but its a touching sight to see one and compare its humbleness to the hubris of the generals on both sides who commited 'legal' murder ....
All my family have military connections and the surviving elderly ones have a horror of war that only participants can have.
Let the light shine!
I keyed on the statement of you post..."America,with its nuclear capability, demonstrated who was going to be in charge when it vapourised and incinerated all those japanese women and children". My Uncle was one of many waiting for the go ahead of the invasion of Japan. After three delays while in full assault readiness the fourth time the Captain whistle blew it was announced that because of some new type of weapon the war department had used the Japanese agreed to terms of unconditional surrender and the invasion was off... with about a twenty second time of no response from the marines, they erupted into shouts of joy. My uncle, who had been badly wounded on the beach at Tarawa was one of twenty marines, a marine Captain, Colonel, several individuals, presumably scientists with Geiger counters from the war dept. and a couple reporters landed, as an assault team, and marched to the bomb site.. my uncle was standing next to the Life photographer who took the famous picture of the shadow cast on a concrete block by a persons body between the blast and the block. One of the terms first ordered upon surrender was that no one was to be seen... not even lifting a curtain... for seventy two hours. My uncle said it was eerie to be landing on the beach basically alone and marching through the country side and he said, just as the Emperor had ordered... there wasn't a sign of life anywhere, nothing moving, like one of those movies where everybody disappears leaving things as they were. Anyhow... those areas bombed were military industrial areas and leaflets had been dropped by the Air Corp telling people to evacuate the area as it was to be destroyed from the air. We were there as part of the occupation, me as dependent... we had a Japanese maid.. a woman of about thirty, thirty five...she told us before the war they had a radio fixed to one station and all was about Japanese conquest, successes, and that the sun never sets on the Japanese Empire, as depicted on their flag. She told us one evening.. with tears in her eyes and near breaking voice.. that as the tide of war had obviously changed, the government described Americans as barbarians who drink the blood of their God, that the American government did not send it's army enough food, expecting them to live off the land as they conquered.. she said... choking.. they were told the Americans will kill all the men, rape and kill the women, and eat the children... and, she continued, practically imploring to be understood... she continued.. and we believed it.. we believed it. We were instructed to arm ourselves as we could and die in place rather than surrender to the American barbarians, for no surrender was possible. Then, after the surrender.. the Americans came.. even though we had been assured by the Emperor, we were so afraid... but they gave us medicine, food, water, electricity, told our men to go about their fishing, work.. they set up schools...let local leaders organize and run civil activities.. she is practically crying as she choked to get this out.. like it was very important for her to get it out, so people would know. Her name was Tomiko.

Those bombs prevented an invasion that had already been worked out which would have destroyed that wonderful land and those beautiful people... not to mention the Japanese military forces very active in China.... thank goodness that didn't have to happen. Yes, we, America, was going to be in charge. The history of the human race is one of war, with technology, instead of deliverer, an enabler... how many millions during the last century...how many to come. Yes, legal murder.. but honestly.. what does one do... and it isn't the generals topping the food chain of warfare, it's bankers... wars.. they are financed and interest is paid into future generations, compounded by additional wars. It's how the world works.

As an aside... my father was military, career... in before the war...out, then back in for the duration... was at Normandy on D Day, part of the advance through Europe.

Thank you for answering John,
Take care.
 
And had the bombs not been dropped and the surrender had not taken place there would now be a North and South Japan like the Korean peninsula. Stalin declared war on Japan 3 days before the surrender. In that short time the Soviet Union invaded and took over the Kuril Islands islands they occupy to this day.
 
The Red Army was incapable of the naval and organizational effort needed to invade the Japanese home islands. Indeed, the United States Navy was unsure it was capable of the job and King and Nimitz were about to pull the plug on the Army's invasion plan when the Bomb made an invasion unnecessary.

The Navy and Army Air Force favored a blockade and continued bombardment and aerial interdiction of Japanese transportation, a strategy that probably would've starved the Japanese into submission within several months. The Japanese government feared such a strategy more than they feared invasion since starvation could've led to revolution within Japan and a breakdown of the existing social structure, a structure that survived the Bomb and subsequent surrender to the Allies.
 
Thanks for your very interesting reply spicer.My father also took part in the pacific war, in the RAF,serving in India,Burma,Malaya and Borneo.He had an abiding and bitter hatred of war following his experiences,witnessing both the cruelty and absurdity of men at war.
Your arguments however i find less than persuasive and i couldnt improve on Toms analysis by one iota.
Japanese social conservatism was instrumental in enabling a fascist clique to take Japan to war[not forgetting British and A merican hegemony in the region and control of oil and minerals]and was conscripted post war into part of the US anti-communist effort.
l would recommend the books of Edward Herman for an analysis of Americas role in the world post war and an estimate of the total war dead incurred in Americas imperial wars
 
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Thanks for your very interesting reply spicer.My father also took part in the pacific war, in the RAF,serving in India,Burma,Malaya and Borneo.He had an abiding and bitter hatred of war following his experiences,witnessing both the cruelty and absurdity of men at war.
Your arguments however i find less than persuasive and i couldnt improve on Toms analysis by one iota.
Japanese social conservatism was instrumental in enabling a fascist clique to take Japan to war[not forgetting British and A merican hegemony in the region and control of oil and minerals]and was conscripted post war into part of the US anti-communist effort.
l would recommend the books of Edward Herman for an analysis of Americas role in the world post war and an estimate of the total war dead incurred in Americas imperial wars
RAF... was he on the ground....?
 
@john111/LZ


I had this funny, wiseass reply that incorporated Edward Hermann, the actor from "The Lost Boys".

Then I read a few lines about the Edward Herman you actually meant.

Wow. Powerful medicine. Thank you for sharing. And Tom Brennan routinely sucks all the air out of the room in regards to historical threads. I mean that in the best of ways, Tom. :rockon:

I agree with Santayana considering history 100%
 
"I've got news for Mr. Santayana: we're doomed to repeat the past no matter what. That's what it is to be alive."
- Kurt Vonnegut

Those with personal memories of world war will soon all be dead. With that, we can begin again. In light of recent events, I can hardly wait!

Excelsior!!
 
Thanks for your very interesting reply spicer.My father also took part in the pacific war, in the RAF,serving in India,Burma,Malaya and Borneo.He had an abiding and bitter hatred of war following his experiences,witnessing both the cruelty and absurdity of men at war.
Your arguments however i find less than persuasive and i couldnt improve on Toms analysis by one iota.
Japanese social conservatism was instrumental in enabling a fascist clique to take Japan to war[not forgetting British and A merican hegemony in the region and control of oil and minerals]and was conscripted post war into part of the US anti-communist effort.
l would recommend the books of Edward Herman for an analysis of Americas role in the world post war and an estimate of the total war dead incurred in Americas imperial wars

The allied soldiers, and the general public, were told that it was the act of dropping the A Bomb that prevented the 'necessary invasion' of Japan.

Their elation was real. Their glory was real, even if they were just perpetrating a bluff or feint. You guys make the intended strategy of blockade and strangulation sound like it was going to be a walk in the park. What the war planners were really going to do is mute, Harry said drop the bomb.

I'm with Spicer on this one.
 
More precisely, Harry didn't say "don't do it." The Manhattan Project was driving itself.

That was the plan, a show of force to Stalin, and the bear.
 
Cannot see anything in your post Big Cat that i find persuasive.....and as for'glory',i dont understand the term.
 
"We can't go political."Dont know what you mean by this,unless you have an ideology you feel you cant express...
As for 'winning',what does that mean?Korea and Vietnam,which followed the defeat of Japan were not 'won'and both were horrific tragedies for all paticipants.Perhaps you think the bomb should have been used in those conflicts also.ln which case we really do part company,amicably of course.
 
If the goal of the Korean conflict was the restoration of status quo border division, then it was achieved. As far as the Vietnam conflict goes, that is presently being reviewed on PBS with the benefit of hindsight and chronological distance.
 
"We can't go political."Dont know what you mean by this,unless you have an ideology you feel you cant express...
As for 'winning',what does that mean?Korea and Vietnam,which followed the defeat of Japan were not 'won'and both were horrific tragedies for all paticipants.Perhaps you think the bomb should have been used in those conflicts also.ln which case we really do part company,amicably of course.
No, I don't think the bomb should have been dropped in Korea or Vietnam.

"Can't go political" means IMHO the reasons the USA was 'all over the world' then, are the same reason it's 'all over the world' now.

As far as you not understanding glory, look at the newsreels of the parades.

Glory is a sense of elation one feels after someone else tries to destroy them, and the other party fails.
 
So for an understanding of 'glory'we need to examine the mass hysteria generated by government propoganda....think ill stick to the traditional academic route for studying human behaviour.
Youre all over the world because your an empire with an enormous arms industry to support and subsidise.
 
So for an understanding of 'glory'we need to examine the mass hysteria generated by government propoganda....think ill stick to the traditional academic route for studying human behaviour.
Youre all over the world because your an empire with an enormous arms industry to support and subsidise.
You said it, not me.

Glory can be experienced on a personal level as well. I'm not advocating violence by any means, but it's much more palatable when one doesn't lose.
 
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