Machine empathy? Or: Automotive Citrus knowing it's Time

Ours didn't even make it to 100,000. By 80,000, so much was wrong with it--the floor on the passenger's side was half rusted away, as was small part of the driver's side. That car left us stranded everywhere, often with failed radiator hoses, and any of those hose leaks or ruptures would soak the distributor so the car wouldn't start. (The distributor was in the front of the engine, not the rear as it was on others.) I also remember the fuel pump taking a dump, the distributor itself going bad (which somehow made the lights dim), and when the exhaust finally gave out, Dad got frustrated, swore a bit, and vowed to go buy a new car. (Never mind the brand new '79 Newport was an even worse POS! :D )

We have it good now. Modern cars last so much longer, and are so much more reliable. My dad's cars at 75-80,000 were pretty much done. Nowadays, 200,000 is common. I know a few with CR-Vs like mine that run into the mid 300,000 range, as one example. Safer, too.
My Buick was the same , if it was even humid out , it would not start .
 
I heard on the radio the average cost of car ownership is $8900 a year. That includes everything, gas, insurance, etc. This figure must include a lot of repairs, and that being the average there are plenty that will exceed the average by a large margin. I have to pay for and maintain 5 cars and a race car, plus a couple bikes. The newest vehicle is 15 years old. If you are unable to do at least half the work yourself, possibly owning a new car with a warranty and making payments is your best bet.
 
I have 3 vehicles and a scooter; a 2003 VW Passat GLX wagon (V6), 1997 BMW Z3 (1.9L), and a 1999 Jeep Cherokee Limited (XJ)... I keep 'em clean, waxed and maintained, with my own labor and that of nearby shops - nowhere near $8900 per car/year, though. They are garaged year-round, which has really helped keep them looking very nice. The Jeep has 221K on it now, has had a lot of the accessories replaced (radiator, power steering pump)... KBB lists it as having a $900 value, now, and I'll very soon have to put $600 worth of new tires on it - it's my daily driver and I would be confidant about driving it across country...
 
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I was a bit young to own an American car when they ruled the roads in the 50's and before that in South Africa.

Below are the cars I owned since 1963:
The original Fiat 500 with rollback sunroof and 'crash' gearbox
Renault Dauphine Gordini
Triumph TR3A
Renault R8 Gordini (2)
Citroen Club
Citroen DS
Renault TS Hatchback
Renault 16TXE Hatchback
Renault R25
Renault Laguna (my current drive)

tri_pod
 
For those of us that live in northern climates i firmly believe regular yearly undercarriage and body seam oiling keeps the rust away quite nicely. My 2003 is surprisingly rust free and she never see,s a garage.Up here you will even see brand new trucks with the tell tale signs that they have been oiled.My friends old 1998 f150 had zero rust .I believe you could use a magnifying glass and not find any,lol.He sold it with 300,000 plus k,s on her but the motor finally died.Would be an excellent candidate for a new motor.That truck was well taken care of and drove and felt like a new one.Another friend also had a 98 f150 with mint body and over 350,000k.All three of our trucks are 4x4 and 4.6 litres.Mine has roll up windows,no power seats and even a am/fm cassette ,lol.Has air con and a heater that could cook a turkey.
Interesting. I can't say I've heard of that concept before. I don't know whether or not it's a common procedure in the US, but it's something I may look into. More common are 'under-coatings' applied at car washes and whatnot. Maybe they use some sort of oil in the process, but who knows. I figured it was some sort of wax, or something akin to a clear-coat.
Our '04 Civic has no rust-through whatsoever, and we have some brutal roads and way too much road salt here in dumpy Michigan. The only rust it does have is where some senile old lady backed into the rear bumper and slightly creased the fender...and drove off. My daughter's '02 Accord also has no rust, surprisingly (we just recently bought it dirt cheap as a college car).

Unfortunately the '04 Civic is not driveable at the moment. We had one of those gosh-darned (being nice here) Bosch spark plugs shatter its insulator in cylinder #2. It had low compression on that cylinder since then (as there is no telling what those ceramic bits did to the engine), but just two weeks ago on its way to the airport, it started running really bad. I think a valve is burned, but I have to do a leak test to find out which it is (valve, or piston rings). Neighbor's son came by and checked compression (as I was still out of town), and it now only holds 20psi. With 240k on it, it's not worth putting a lot into it. A shame since the rest of the car is in good shape, including the transmission and AC. We've gotten quotes for engine replacements but we're looking at $1500 minimum (used engine, 10 hours labor to swap it)...up to $2800 for a rebuilt. Uh, no. These little D17 engines aren't rocket science, nor are they hard to work on. I just don't have the time or all of the tools to do it myself.

And lesson learned--if I again see anything Bosch on a car, it gets replaced immediately. I knew they made crap to begin with, but this pretty much seals it for me.

So now we're car shopping. I may just do some troubleshooting on the Civic, slap a rebuilt head on it (if it's a valve issue), and sell it as long as it runs. Main thing is, the lady needs something reliable to get to/from work in. We talked of getting another less expensive car, but do we want more problems just a couple years down the road? She also wants to be higher up--the Civic rides kind of low. So, a CR-V it is. She's using my old '97, which has its share of body rust. It has its aches and pains, and noises and quirks, but it still runs. Those old B-series engines are pretty bullet-proof (as is the K-series 2.4L in my newer CR-V).

The timing really sucks, though...as it always does...
Ouch! That sounds like quite the run of bad luck. My brother has an '04 Civic, and it's had some issues here and there (mostly involving latches and whatnot that refuse to open), but nothing quite that major. Of course, he doesn't drive it much these days, so that might have something to do with it.

His car also has far less visible rust on it than my old one did. As I said before, my '02 had more rust on it than any other seventh-generation Civic I've seen on the roads, and I notice them quite often. I'll have to take some pictures of my old '02 before it gets hauled to the junkyard by the shop I bought the '06 from. Speaking of which, my '06 had a bit of possible rust on the passenger side when I got it (there was a spot of what looked like Bondo near the wheel well covering it up), but it's been taken care of.

Oddly enough, the D17 in my Civic never had any major issues in and of itself while I had it. I had the timing belt replaced at 114K, a friend and I did a tune-up on it some time before that, and I took it for oil changes every 5,000 or so miles (while the mechanic was willing to put it up on the lift, anyway). Of course, the same can't be said for the brakes (replaced the entire set twice in the five years I had it), air conditioning system (compressor seized up a few years ago), alternator (went through two of 'em, the second of which screwed up the computer when it died), automatic transmissions (three within four months two years ago), etc. etc. etc. :mad:
I heard on the radio the average cost of car ownership is $8900 a year. That includes everything, gas, insurance, etc. This figure must include a lot of repairs, and that being the average there are plenty that will exceed the average by a large margin. I have to pay for and maintain 5 cars and a race car, plus a couple bikes. The newest vehicle is 15 years old. If you are unable to do at least half the work yourself, possibly owning a new car with a warranty and making payments is your best bet.
That figure seems a bit off, but who knows. Did they specify if that was per car, or for a certain average number of cars owned? Thus far, I've only owned one car at a time, and I'm pretty sure my figure hasn't come near to that thus far (though it probably came close the year my '02 Civic started eating transmissions like they were candy). As for maintenance, I have yet to start doing stuff like oil changes myself, but I do have a couple of mechanics who I trust, and who charge decent rates for needed repairs.
-Adam
 
Heck, my '97 CR-V has been the cheapest to own and operate over its lifetime. Nowhere near $8900/year. I even figured that if I ever had to dump $1500 into it for a trans or engine, that is still cheaper than the 14 years I've owned it where I've never had to make a car payment. Aside from maintenance, tires, and "old age" parts replacements (where rubber dries out or metal gets worn), it hasn't needed a thing. I have paid way more to insure it than what it ever cost me per year to maintain or repair. The disclaimer: I've done all of the work myself.

Thing is, so many have to buy or lease new vehicles these days, it makes me wonder if those payments are part of the calculation. That is a cost of ownership--actually having to pay for the vehicle itself. The average cost of a new one is over $20,000 now. Throw in insurance and gas, and newer cars could get to that $8900 level easily, I'd think.

Ouch! That sounds like quite the run of bad luck.
That's really the only bad thing we've had go wrong with it. We bought it three years ago, in a pinch, with high mileage on it, so I didn't expect it to be trouble-free. It did use a lot of oil, but the camshaft cap, valve cover and oil pan were all leaking oil, and I haven't yet gotten around to the oil pan yet. Just pricing out parts today--if it is the cylinder head, I'm probably at about $500 in parts, which includes all the gaskets and seals, plus the timing belt/tensioner/water pump kit. I just have to get a leakdown tester to verify if it's the valves, piston rings, or even the head gasket. Being halfway through October, my days of being able to work outdoors are limited now, so I have to move fast (if we don't replace it).
 
If you are unable to do at least half the work yourself, possibly owning a new car with a warranty and making payments is your best bet.

Have to agree 100% on this. Older cars get expensive, and finding people that understand how to work on them can be hard. Also quite frankly some shops are butchers and just aren't going to fix your power windows without hacking the door or busting up the door panels. Its a little time consuming to do it properly and carefully but it can definitely be done without wrecking stuff. I've been inside of enough doors that looked like a dull apprentice went at it with a sharp beaver.
 
Have to agree 100% on this. Older cars get expensive, and finding people that understand how to work on them can be hard. Also quite frankly some shops are butchers and just aren't going to fix your power windows without hacking the door or busting up the door panels. Its a little time consuming to do it properly and carefully but it can definitely be done without wrecking stuff. I've been inside of enough doors that looked like a dull apprentice went at it with a sharp beaver.
Nothing to do with while-you-wait car audio installs, no doubt.:yikes:
 
It pretty much boils down to this: You keep them because you love them or you keep them because you don't want car payments.
 
What percentage in average monthly maintainance of a monthly installment is the bail point?
 
What percentage in average monthly maintainance of a monthly installment is the bail point?
For me, the bail point is "major repairs," as in a transmission or engine, or when so many things go wrong that it's not worth putting money into (like the craptastic Malibu we had). Or, when it becomes too rusty to work on, which is my current issue, 20 years of our salted, pothole-decorated roads not helping at all. I think with my old CR-V, payments were for five or six years (bought out a 4-year lease), and the remaining 14 or so years were payment-free. So it wouldn't have bothered me to dump $500 on parts in one year, as that was equal to maybe two car payments. Tires every few years were probably the biggest ongoing expense. Oil, ATF and coolant changes? Cheap. Even the radiator was inexpensive. The most expensive part I probably ever bought was a replacement driveshaft (as the u-joints are not replaceable) and even there, I found an open box deal on Amazon for ~$250 (vs. $350 or more). But my big savings is in labor, as I do everything possible myself.
 
What percentage in average monthly maintainance of a monthly installment is the bail point?
Monthly mechanical maintenance really doesn't factor in for me. Other than oil changes, I've gone thru a couple of timing belts and a water pump on schedule and before their time was up and a crank sensor. It would have to be something like a bad collision or wreck. I bought my present 1999 car in 2002 and have never carried a car payment so I just have always carried liability insurance. It is too old now for collision insurance.
My reasoning is that to start I have a 50/50 chance of an accident being my fault (even odds), I have had no traffic violations (not even parking tickets) in nearly 40 years so I have a very good driving record but if someone were to hit me it would more than likely take mine out beyond repair and their insurance company would gladly buy me out for blue book even though the car is worth way more than that to me.
Believe me, I drive very defensively.
 
I do my on maintenance. My first car was a 1977, new Montecarlo. It made it to 1999 when rust won the battle and the timing chain slipped and bent the pushrods at 206,000...Too bad I found out about the nylon cam gear after the fact that was prone to wear early or I would have changed it earlier. Mechanically, the car was perfect until then...
Also purchased a 1992 Aerostar minivan in 1993 ,used with 62,000 miles on it. I ran it to 263,000 miles before letting it go in 2013....It had developed a an oil leak in the front bearing seal at the oil pan..( couldn’t drop the pan because of the frame crossmember)...an air bag light that resisted all known fixes, and exhaust manifold leaks that were gonna require pulling the motor......the exterior was good except for the rocker panels, and the interior was still good, no rips or tears..plus, the kids were gone....
Regular maintenance pays dividends .......lots of years with no car payments and doing my own work has saved me thousands of dollars.....
 
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Regular maintenance pays dividends .......lots of years with no car payments and doing my own work has saved me thousands of dollars.....
We are making up for it now. I had no payments for 14 years. Now we have two of them! Provided my expenses do not jump up dramatically, I should have mine paid off by the end of next year.

The only work I don't do is work that I do not have the equipment for. I do not have a way to remove a transmission or engine, for instance. And where I live, I do not have a workbench at my disposal (or at this point, a garage to work in, since we use our small garage for storage). So that kind of limits my options. Yet I have done a few things in the driveway. I have to do a cylinder head replacement over the next couple of weeks in this miserable weather we're having. I am not looking forward to it.
 
I have to do a cylinder head replacement over the next couple of weeks in this miserable weather we're having. I am not looking forward to it.

UGH! I'm not sure what size of engine you're dealing with but I know from personal experience those old V8 cast iron heads can be booger beasts!
I pulled one off of my '72 351C back in the day and I couldn't believe how heavy it was - and I was in my 30s!
Young, healthy, strong and was going to live forever and it was just about all I could do to get it out of the engine bay.:eek:
 
Changed a tranny in a 76 460 marquis in the driveway back in the day what a major chore that was.Boy the stupid things we did when we were young!
 
UGH! I'm not sure what size of engine you're dealing with but I know from personal experience those old V8 cast iron heads can be booger beasts!
I pulled one off of my '72 351C back in the day and I couldn't believe how heavy it was - and I was in my 30s!
Young, healthy, strong and was going to live forever and it was just about all I could do to get it out of the engine bay.:eek:
D17A1 engine in a Civic. So it's aluminum, and small. :D I've never done one, but it is not that hard. It's just 1) working in tight quarters with poor lighting (can never get it where I need it), and 2) it's in the 40s, damp and cloudy, with no garage to work in. If I wasn't getting tapped out from car expenses I'd just pay the neighbor's son to do it for extra money. (He is an ASE certified mechanic.) Had to put out money for a downpayment, have to get one set of new tires, and I have to get my daughter's transmission rebuilt or replaced really soon. So I need the Civic back on the road as a spare.
 
Oh man, given those circumstances even if it is small I still feel for you!
In the 40s, damp and cloudy with NO garage to work in is not good.
 
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