Quibbles are slight objections. In this case you appear to feel slighted by one. Are you related to Klingons?
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Denon dp 80 vs yamaha gt 2000
- Thread starter filipealm
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Quibbles are slight objections. In this case you appear to feel slighted by one. Are you related to Klingons?
Mister Pig
Pigamus Maximus
Oh a slight objection, I see. Is this perhaps a courtroom technique of a passive aggressive barrister?
"Your honor I slightly object! I mean I want to sort of object. Perhaps i should . What do you think, should I object? I mean if you don't want me to I won't...but darn tootin I sure think I should. Oh I don't know. Don't stare at me Mister Prosecutor, I will object I will I will I will. That's it I object!"
This is a quibble?
Regards
Mister Pig
Nope.
I happen to have a DP-75, DP-80, and four GT-2000's sitting in my repair/listening area.
The Denons and two of the GT2k's are mine-the other two GT-2K's I've pre-sold and I'm refurbing for people. My 75 and 80 both have Denon 307's on them-my last one had a 308 12" on the bigger DK-100 plinth and it was awesome with my V15 V-MR w/Jico SAS on it. I have a DL-103r on the 75 and the 80 is for sale at the moment with no cart.
Three of the GT-2000's have the YA-39 arm; one has a Sumiko Pearwood Celebration, one has a ZU Audio DL-103 Mk. II grade 2, the last has a Shure V-15 V-MR with a Jico SAS stylus. The last GT-2k has a YSA-1 arm with a Sumiko Blackbird HOMC. Over the past two years I've done a dozen GT-2000's and maybe four DP-80 combos with a myriad of carts.
My favorite combo right now is the YSA-1/GT-2k with the Blackbird. I would have say the V15 combo on the Denon 308/DP-80 comes in a close second, but they do sound distinctly different. It's not the best apples to apples comparison as by coincidence (or not) these two carts are broken in with about 75 and 100 hours on them respectively. The Celebration and ZU don't have 15 albums between them. I just installed the ZU for a guy-a noticeable change over a 103r, and the darned Celebration was so much $$$$ it becomes a mental theater production to stage everything just right to play my best vinyl on it. It feels like it would a sin to the audio Gods to just grab a regular ole rock album and throw it under THAT cartridge, so I don't. Whereas the Blackbird/YSA is like a top prizefighter in his prime, the V15 combo was best described by a friend of mine as "audio cognac" -you want to put on a smoking jacket and sit near a fire in the library soaking it in. I have a SAEC 308SX and plate gathering dust in a box as I haven't been wanting for (or have any time for) a change.
I don't know if this helps settle anything here, but I am in the uniquely blessed position to have and enjoy them both immensely. Anyone who has either one of these should feel very proud to know something a lot of people don't about how special they can be. Once I get out from under the backlog leading up to the holidays maybe I will do a real shootout, but in the meantime I'm a very happy camper with it as is.
The Denons and two of the GT2k's are mine-the other two GT-2K's I've pre-sold and I'm refurbing for people. My 75 and 80 both have Denon 307's on them-my last one had a 308 12" on the bigger DK-100 plinth and it was awesome with my V15 V-MR w/Jico SAS on it. I have a DL-103r on the 75 and the 80 is for sale at the moment with no cart.
Three of the GT-2000's have the YA-39 arm; one has a Sumiko Pearwood Celebration, one has a ZU Audio DL-103 Mk. II grade 2, the last has a Shure V-15 V-MR with a Jico SAS stylus. The last GT-2k has a YSA-1 arm with a Sumiko Blackbird HOMC. Over the past two years I've done a dozen GT-2000's and maybe four DP-80 combos with a myriad of carts.
My favorite combo right now is the YSA-1/GT-2k with the Blackbird. I would have say the V15 combo on the Denon 308/DP-80 comes in a close second, but they do sound distinctly different. It's not the best apples to apples comparison as by coincidence (or not) these two carts are broken in with about 75 and 100 hours on them respectively. The Celebration and ZU don't have 15 albums between them. I just installed the ZU for a guy-a noticeable change over a 103r, and the darned Celebration was so much $$$$ it becomes a mental theater production to stage everything just right to play my best vinyl on it. It feels like it would a sin to the audio Gods to just grab a regular ole rock album and throw it under THAT cartridge, so I don't. Whereas the Blackbird/YSA is like a top prizefighter in his prime, the V15 combo was best described by a friend of mine as "audio cognac" -you want to put on a smoking jacket and sit near a fire in the library soaking it in. I have a SAEC 308SX and plate gathering dust in a box as I haven't been wanting for (or have any time for) a change.
I don't know if this helps settle anything here, but I am in the uniquely blessed position to have and enjoy them both immensely. Anyone who has either one of these should feel very proud to know something a lot of people don't about how special they can be. Once I get out from under the backlog leading up to the holidays maybe I will do a real shootout, but in the meantime I'm a very happy camper with it as is.
I'm thinking a Blackbird and V15 would sound distinctly different using the same TT/TA.
I had DD in mind, but think this would also apply to the 301, 401, TD124 and MKII idlers.
mrtim6
Active Member
One difference that has not been mentioned is the s/n ratio between both turntables. The GT-2000 and variants has a lower noise floor than the Denon - 85db (DIN-B) for Yamaha vs 75db (DIN-B) for Denon. I have only heard the GT-2000 so I’m not out to criticise the Denon as by all accounts it’s an excellent TT and I would not turn one down under the right circumstances.
Nevertheless the GT-2000 shines slightly brighter here. Wow & flutter has not been mentioned thus far either. The Denon DP-80 was around 150 . As one travels up the GT chain W&F ratings are improved: GT-750 = 60, GT-2000/L = 50 GT-2000x = 25. Now I’m not sure if the W&F measurements were done in exactly the same manner here. Now the new Grand Prix Monaco Direct drive W&F = 20 however we are comparing a 32 year old turntable (2000x) or 37 year old turntable (GT-2000) to a modern one that costs around $28,000 USD. Interestingly the extremely rare and much more expensive (over 3 times cost of the GT-2000x) Denon DP-100 broadcasts turntable also had a W&F of 20. The Japanese we’re truly masters of direct drive turntable design all those years ago.
If the figures do mean anything then and what Theo mentioned earlier regarding the GT2000 selling very fast in the Japanese second hand market to this day (which I have also noticed over the last five years on Hifido). I’m guessing there are many positive reasons why this turntable is still very popular 37 years after its inception.
Nevertheless the GT-2000 shines slightly brighter here. Wow & flutter has not been mentioned thus far either. The Denon DP-80 was around 150 . As one travels up the GT chain W&F ratings are improved: GT-750 = 60, GT-2000/L = 50 GT-2000x = 25. Now I’m not sure if the W&F measurements were done in exactly the same manner here. Now the new Grand Prix Monaco Direct drive W&F = 20 however we are comparing a 32 year old turntable (2000x) or 37 year old turntable (GT-2000) to a modern one that costs around $28,000 USD. Interestingly the extremely rare and much more expensive (over 3 times cost of the GT-2000x) Denon DP-100 broadcasts turntable also had a W&F of 20. The Japanese we’re truly masters of direct drive turntable design all those years ago.
If the figures do mean anything then and what Theo mentioned earlier regarding the GT2000 selling very fast in the Japanese second hand market to this day (which I have also noticed over the last five years on Hifido). I’m guessing there are many positive reasons why this turntable is still very popular 37 years after its inception.
finisvox
New Member
Hi everybody,
I would like to point some technical things about these turntables; the Denon DP80 and the Yamaha GT2000. I know that some of these things, are had said here during the thread develop, but it will serve also for to complete my intervention, as user of both pieces, sometime ago.
At very first place, both machines are from very different technologies: the Denon uses a traditional 3 phase AC motor and the Yamaha instead, uses a BLDC coreless motor, a “pancake” flat type. This fact, could be a big difference, especially under the point of view of the “micro details”, being the coreless motor a big advantage against the traditional motor. And I say “could be” because the machines must be both in its better and near-to-ideal running conditions, for to make it comparables, at least, under the music-listener point of view.
Second, the Denon must be installed in a plinth of the same quality of the Yamaha, for to make valid the comparation. Besides, both turntables, must use the same tonearm. May be, using the Yamaha tonearm installed on the Denon. In fact, I have seen on the internet, the Yamaha tonearm for the GT2000, alone. Anyway, I have used the Denon with some Denon tonearms; like the DA308 and the DA309 (12 and 10 inches, respectively).
Before to go forward, I would like to say that BOTH turntables are very, very good machines, regardless its technical characteristics or datasheets, and the differences, enters in a land that I can clasify of “personal tastes affairs”. More yet, oneself can likes more one of these TT , a certain moment, or the other one in a different moment.
If I would must use the Yamaha's slogan “Gigantic & Tremendous” I would use it for the Denon DP80, instead.... Yes. As all of we knows that the heart of any turntable, is its motor, the Denon's one is actually enormous. By the other hand, the Yamaha's one is more or less small. But they (Yamaha) have used a very big plate. The Yamaha's motor, is no more than one like used on the JVC QL-Y5, a very good turntable, but never considered by the popular "hi-end" market, like as other brands with better advertising. More yet, the engine used by the JVC (on the QL-Y5) have some technical refinements that are not present on the motor used on Yamaha GT2000. And the JVC's motor is far older than the GT 2000. More yet, the motor model used on the GT2000, seem to be an OEM version, made surely by JVC... In fact, seeing carefully the GT2000 motor, is possible to see the same label used in the motors made by JVC.
Talking about modern motors (newer that these used by the Denon DP80), I can say that the motor used on the JVC QL-Y66F is BIGGER than those on the Yamaha GT2000, and also; far more refinated technically. The big QL-Y66F's Achilles heel , was its very weak plinth.
Returning on the Yamaha GT2000, its Achilles heel instead, is the tonearm. Using an honest one, like the Denon DA309, is a bit better. So I think that using one these high quality ones, the whole performance could arrive to unsuspected levels.
I have done many experiments with many motors units, also with motors alone and custom plates, different tone arms, etc. One of my favorites (but not the only one), is the Technics SP10mkII with the Dynavector DV-505 tonearm, mounted on a my own design of plinth. A truly delicious, complete and energetic sound, even with a motor "core type" (not coreless). Technics never entered to the “coreless” arena, until now. May be for commercial motives or so. Anyway, only at the last production, Technics have included the “coreless” motors in the latest models, but those models have high prices, like the SL1200G, SL1200GR, SL1200GAE and the newest SP10R, that until now, the price is unknown, at least in Europe. All of them, from 2016 onwards. OK, finally also Technics is convinced that said by JVC 50 years ago, yes....half century ago !!!!.
Returning on our Denon and Yamaha, as said before, the better one depends on the personal tastes. Both of them are fine machines. The Yamaha could be better yet, if it is provided with a better tonearm.
cheers !
I would like to point some technical things about these turntables; the Denon DP80 and the Yamaha GT2000. I know that some of these things, are had said here during the thread develop, but it will serve also for to complete my intervention, as user of both pieces, sometime ago.
At very first place, both machines are from very different technologies: the Denon uses a traditional 3 phase AC motor and the Yamaha instead, uses a BLDC coreless motor, a “pancake” flat type. This fact, could be a big difference, especially under the point of view of the “micro details”, being the coreless motor a big advantage against the traditional motor. And I say “could be” because the machines must be both in its better and near-to-ideal running conditions, for to make it comparables, at least, under the music-listener point of view.
Second, the Denon must be installed in a plinth of the same quality of the Yamaha, for to make valid the comparation. Besides, both turntables, must use the same tonearm. May be, using the Yamaha tonearm installed on the Denon. In fact, I have seen on the internet, the Yamaha tonearm for the GT2000, alone. Anyway, I have used the Denon with some Denon tonearms; like the DA308 and the DA309 (12 and 10 inches, respectively).
Before to go forward, I would like to say that BOTH turntables are very, very good machines, regardless its technical characteristics or datasheets, and the differences, enters in a land that I can clasify of “personal tastes affairs”. More yet, oneself can likes more one of these TT , a certain moment, or the other one in a different moment.
If I would must use the Yamaha's slogan “Gigantic & Tremendous” I would use it for the Denon DP80, instead.... Yes. As all of we knows that the heart of any turntable, is its motor, the Denon's one is actually enormous. By the other hand, the Yamaha's one is more or less small. But they (Yamaha) have used a very big plate. The Yamaha's motor, is no more than one like used on the JVC QL-Y5, a very good turntable, but never considered by the popular "hi-end" market, like as other brands with better advertising. More yet, the engine used by the JVC (on the QL-Y5) have some technical refinements that are not present on the motor used on Yamaha GT2000. And the JVC's motor is far older than the GT 2000. More yet, the motor model used on the GT2000, seem to be an OEM version, made surely by JVC... In fact, seeing carefully the GT2000 motor, is possible to see the same label used in the motors made by JVC.
Talking about modern motors (newer that these used by the Denon DP80), I can say that the motor used on the JVC QL-Y66F is BIGGER than those on the Yamaha GT2000, and also; far more refinated technically. The big QL-Y66F's Achilles heel , was its very weak plinth.
Returning on the Yamaha GT2000, its Achilles heel instead, is the tonearm. Using an honest one, like the Denon DA309, is a bit better. So I think that using one these high quality ones, the whole performance could arrive to unsuspected levels.
I have done many experiments with many motors units, also with motors alone and custom plates, different tone arms, etc. One of my favorites (but not the only one), is the Technics SP10mkII with the Dynavector DV-505 tonearm, mounted on a my own design of plinth. A truly delicious, complete and energetic sound, even with a motor "core type" (not coreless). Technics never entered to the “coreless” arena, until now. May be for commercial motives or so. Anyway, only at the last production, Technics have included the “coreless” motors in the latest models, but those models have high prices, like the SL1200G, SL1200GR, SL1200GAE and the newest SP10R, that until now, the price is unknown, at least in Europe. All of them, from 2016 onwards. OK, finally also Technics is convinced that said by JVC 50 years ago, yes....half century ago !!!!.
Returning on our Denon and Yamaha, as said before, the better one depends on the personal tastes. Both of them are fine machines. The Yamaha could be better yet, if it is provided with a better tonearm.
cheers !
Finisvox thanks for adding your experience with the GT-2000, DP-80. Not to be overlooked would be the JVC QL-80 and QL-100 motor units. Mr Pig has also commented from his experience with the DP-75 and SP-10Mk2 that it could boil down to your personal taste, all being excellent performers. IMO by the mid 1980s the Japanese mfgs had just about reached the height of direct drive development and anything further would not be done till recently by Technics due to the concentration on digital technology.
808_state
Super Member
I initially avoided this thread because it seemed to be a "mine is better" contest but now that things have calmed down I'm game.
If you don't mind, please elaborate on the short comings of the YA-39 arm. You're not the first person to mention that it has them. I won't take offense as I am now using the YSA-1 and still realize that all setups have inherent limitations. Now that I know how great coreless motors can be, I sort of view the new Technics motors as works of art.
808_state
Super Member
Thanks for the valuable info on carts for the GT arms. I use an original Yamaha MC-100 on my YSA-1 arm and have been quite pleased with the result. What's interesting is that the Blackbird and the MC-100 are both about the same weight and I wonder if 9-10 grams is the magic number for the YSA-1. There's apparently now a lomc version of the Blackbird which intrigues me.
I'd like to hear the technical reasoning behind the "micro details" comments. The speed accuracy of the Denon is astoundingly high. I can't think of a good technical reason that the electromotive mechanism used by the motor would have a strong influence beyond it's ability to hold speed and go so without inducing rumble.
totem
Addicted Member
The integration of the speed control with the rest of the build, light platter or heavy etc is where I believe
the "micro details" are affected.
Additionally there's a reason the new top Technics tables are core less. And perhaps why the GT2000 has its followers.
As mentioned Victor was a player in drive designs and a champion of core less players early on.
I only had 2 JVC motors. I had the QL-YF5 Finisbox praises, and he's right, it really was a good one.
The second JVC motor, very different, drives my Micro Seiki DQX-1000, one of my all-time favorites. I was surprised Seiki went out-of-house for a motor, considering how good what the kept in-house was.
The second JVC motor, very different, drives my Micro Seiki DQX-1000, one of my all-time favorites. I was surprised Seiki went out-of-house for a motor, considering how good what the kept in-house was.
totem
Addicted Member
There was more than 1 Micro Seiki model that used a Victor designed motor, along with the GT-2000 and likely
many we never will be aware of.
In my book thats a ringing endorsement of Victors engineering talent in the drive end of things.
Always wondered just who had a hand in the Denons but other than a striking similarity to the
Victors I think thats as close as the connection gets.
Despite the visual similarities, the motor tech inside the Victor and Denon TOTL models is quite different. It'd be fun to hear a TT-101 and a DP-80 side by side with the same tonearm/cart.
Personally, I think they'd be more alike than different, but I'm a curmudgeon when it comes to believing in sonic differences I can't see or measure.
