You already have phono input on the SA-700.
New Schiit Saga - Passive preamp
- Thread starter normdeplume
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Mark_71
Member
I do, but I wanted to try our some external ones to see if it made any difference. Even a modest improvement.
judsonw
Super Member
Yeah, the Saga is not what you are looking for then. I have not heard the Tube Box S, but I have the Tube Box DS2. I enjoy it, but it was also a big step up from the $50 phono preamp I was using before. I have used it with both MM and MC cartridges and like the versatility of it.
As for the Saga, I may be interested whenever I decide to upgrade next (currently have an integrated amp; might want to try separate pre and power amps).
The Fuxtor
Addicted Member
In your opinion, the Tung Sol made the biggest difference?? I have some Slyvanias too, your description is very accurate !!
Jim Creek
Jazz, Wine, Electronics
I have to add more commentary to my own post.
This CBS/Hytron 6SN7GT is truly an outstanding tube. It’s become my favorite, surpassing even the new Tung Sol 6SN7GTB. The music just pops with this tube. Used vintage tubes can sound fantastic and cost very little.
I've used a passive pre for about 20 years, but only occasionally. Mostly I use an active pre. I love the openness and transparency of the passive, the increase of detail, the sense of space and "air". My passive also offers convenience: 4 inputs and remote control switching, plus of course remote volume and mute.
But while all comments in this thread praise the transparency, no one even mentions Dynamics, namely the ability of the system to convey the changes in sound from soft and moody to loud and dramatic, the startling attack of an unexpected rim-shot or guitar chord. Through a passive preamp, the dynamics are a bit flattened (by "a bit" I mean noticeably). It robs the music of some energy and vitality.
To my ears, an active preamp restores the dynamics. I suppose the question arises, does the active circuitry restore, or add, the dynamics? All I know is the difference is clear, and I always go back to my active preamps (one all-tube, one SS) after a week or two with my passive. It's a trade-off, but I want those dynamics: when Hendrix slashes a chord so loud he wants to blow your mind, let it be blown.
Since no one has even mentioned dynamics as a factor in judging a passive pre, may I suggest you try listening for it? I'm pretty sure if you A/B your active and passive preamp, you WILL notice a loss of dynamic range and power with the passive. Whether this matters is your choice.
For me, I fall in love with the clarity and transparency of my passive every time I use it — but after awhile it gets boring, and I go back to active.
But while all comments in this thread praise the transparency, no one even mentions Dynamics, namely the ability of the system to convey the changes in sound from soft and moody to loud and dramatic, the startling attack of an unexpected rim-shot or guitar chord. Through a passive preamp, the dynamics are a bit flattened (by "a bit" I mean noticeably). It robs the music of some energy and vitality.
To my ears, an active preamp restores the dynamics. I suppose the question arises, does the active circuitry restore, or add, the dynamics? All I know is the difference is clear, and I always go back to my active preamps (one all-tube, one SS) after a week or two with my passive. It's a trade-off, but I want those dynamics: when Hendrix slashes a chord so loud he wants to blow your mind, let it be blown.
Since no one has even mentioned dynamics as a factor in judging a passive pre, may I suggest you try listening for it? I'm pretty sure if you A/B your active and passive preamp, you WILL notice a loss of dynamic range and power with the passive. Whether this matters is your choice.
For me, I fall in love with the clarity and transparency of my passive every time I use it — but after awhile it gets boring, and I go back to active.
mhardy6647
Lunatic Member
A product like this Schiit, but with a transformer (or autoformer) volume control, would be well worth looking into.
I would doubt that many folks who try an AVC/TVC ever go back to resistive attenuators of any sort.
I would doubt that many folks who try an AVC/TVC ever go back to resistive attenuators of any sort.
The Fuxtor
Addicted Member
Ok, I bit and bought one of these tubes!! Probably take 10-14 days to arrive but hoping I can experience the same from it!!
Jim Creek
Jazz, Wine, Electronics
I bet you will love that tube.
Jim Creek
Jazz, Wine, Electronics
Interesting discussion. I haven’t noticed a loss of dynamics when comparing the Saga with my Marantz integrated. One could argue that a preamp should add nothing to the music, dynamics nor anything else.
The Schiit is extremely revealing, which appeals to me. I am addicted to detail.
Some people use a DAC with a volume control, without any preamp, many different opinions on this.
I have no argument with what you say. I don't know your Marantz, or your speakers, so can't comment on how they handle dynamics. And all passives are "revealing", not only the Schiit. My point wasn't that an active preamp "adds" dynamics that "aren't there" (though I allowed for that possibility in my comment) but that a passive pre may simply diminish the dynamics that are there. I too love detail, and I only use phono cartridges with fine-edged styli that excel in retrieving detail — but I'm "addicted" to Music, of which detail is only a part. Dynamics are a vital part too...
The loss of dynamics is a very common compliant about passives. Every design has drawbacks as well as high points. Higher efficiency speakers ime do very well with passive or zero gain line stages. In fact, one of the Schiit designers has stated that the Saga would be a better choice than the Freya for HE speakers due to the much higher gain of the Freya which amplifies as noise. I should note that the Saga also has a tube buffer stage as an option to the passive mode.
True about drawbacks — but loss of dynamics that leaves the Music flat and dull is not a drawback I can accept and always makes me return to an active preamp within days. All the detail and transparency in the world won't make me like Music with the Life sucked out of it (forgive the overstatement, it's not that bad, just wanted to emphasize the point.)
As to your final note about HE speakers, I haven't tried it, but definitely will. It may be the solution, an exciting prospect. But since it requires a significant reconfiguration of my system, it won't happen soon — and by the time I do it we'll all have forgotten about the question, alas...
Jim Creek
Jazz, Wine, Electronics
Here’s where I respectfully disagree. A passive preamp is nothing more than a volume control for the DAC or Phono Preamp (both sources push out more than ample volume on their own).
The dynamics in the music are already in the recording. Any dynamics that are above and beyond the recording are being artificialy added by the active preamp.
As an example, the dynamics in a vinyl recording are determined by the RIAA equalization curve. For a digital recording, the dynamics are in the data, 0s and 1s.
I see no need for another active preamplification stage. Many music lovers use only a DAC with a volume control without an active preamp. But to each their own. If the addition of another active preamp stage sounds right to you then enjoy.
Peace
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And it's likely you're right. But we're overlooking something — we're comparing gear to gear, not to live music. The extra-added-inaccurate dynamics from an active stage sound more like the many live performances I've attended.
You say "The dynamics of the music are already in the recording (my itals)." Are they? I think one can only say with certainty that "the dynamics of the recording are already in the recording." The dynamics of some live performances, from the softest passages to the loudest, exceed the capabilities of the recording equipment; they must be "turned down" to avoid distortion.
It's an Audiophile axiom that we must be true to the recording. I never bought into that. A recording is a flawed portrait of a live event. If an added gain stage makes a Hendrix recording sound more like the Hendrix I heard live many times, then I'll use that gain stage, Even if it is additive, even if it isn't audiophile.
As you say, "If it sounds right to you then enjoy." I'd only add "If it sounds real to me...
The benefit of transformer or autoformer based passive's is the impedance matching. perhaps the dynamically hindered sound produced by such designs as resistor ladders etc. can be traced to impedance mismatches to some degree. Of course a buffer can be inserted in the chain, but there you have another blip in the circuit to manage.
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