High end AV receivers, worst investment in audio?

That's one way of putting it!

I'm just not much on aesthetics beyond quality construction. I'm watching the monitor, not the electronics. I suspect you'd find the Audio Research/VTL gear in the music system boring as it has more of an instrument grade appearance. :)

I'm with you when it comes to something like a monitor. But when it comes to something that's an investment such as an AV system particularly a high end one. I think quality construction shouldn't exclude quality aesthetics. I think that's what makes older hi fi gear so desirable. They were in some ways a centerpiece and each model generation and manufacturer was somewhat unique in their approach. Look at the Fisher 500c it's simple but it's still eye catching. As far as Audio Research I'm actually fine with their design approach it's simple but good looking and it's a coherent aesthetic that they pull off well.
 
High end AV receivers, worst investment in audio? Probably, if you buy new. Some people are OK with that. OTOH, I built my surround system using tube amps.

You don’t need an AVR (or pre-processor) to play multi-channel digital recordings (e.g., SACD, Blu-ray audio, and Blu-ray video). An Oppo universal player (e.g. UDP-205) will decode any digital recording. The Oppo UDP-205 has built-in "pre-amp" functionality, including selectable downmixing (e.g., 7.1, 5.1, 5.0, 2.1, 2.0), bass management (i.e., configurable subwoofer crossover), and volume control.

You can build a great surround sound system with two stereo amps and speakers (i.e., 4.0 or 4.1 system). If you’re interested in experimenting with this, I suggest that you conduct a test by connecting a stereo amp and speakers to the Surround Left and Surround Right and listen for how much content there is in your favorite recordings, and how much L vs. R distinction. Only you can decide if separate L&R rear channels are worthwhile. If L vs R distinction isn’t important to you for the rear channels, then combine the rear channel connections from the Blu-ray player into one via an RCA Y-cable. Connect one stereo amp for L&R, and a second stereo amp for center and rear.

I use the Oppo's analog line-level RCA connections to my vintage tube amps - in other words using the Oppo's DACs and pre-amp. (L, C, and R speakers are Klipsch RF-7II. The single rear speaker is an RF-7. Subwoofers: SVS SB16-Ultra, Klipsch R-115SW.)

Vintage tube amps generally hold their value, and sometimes appreciate in value. Vintage tube amps use discrete components that can be replaced, and therefore vintage tube amps can be kept running for many years. (I have 2 dozen vintage tube amps that are more than 50 years old.) And – most important – vintage tube amps generally sound better than AVRs IMO.

AVRs are “throw-away” technology. (I don’t think they make tweezers small enough to fix ICs.) If you’re OK with that, cool. All I’m saying is that for $5k you can buy enough “investment-quality” (aka “heirloom quality”) tube amps to power a surround sound system. You’ll just have to take a break during the summer due to the heat ... :)

I recognize that tubes aren’t for everyone. You can use two solid-state stereo amps to build a 4.0 or 4.1 system, as described above.

Is anyone else using two stereo amps to run 4.0 or 4.1?
 
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I had a Kenwood mid line entry with Dolby surround sound. I forget the model # but it was around $600.

I paid extra for the rack.

I couldn't take it back fast enough. Didn't do anything well. I tried all the different settings and was extremely disappointed.

Remote contol volume was only thing I liked.

I did keep the rack though.
 
Multi-channel processors also depreciate quickly. 2-3 years ago I picked up a 5 year old TOTL Marantz processor, replete with HDMI switching, balanced inputs & outputs, tuner with HD radio, internet connectivity, 7.2 analog I/O, 24/192 DAC, and more multi-channel processing than I know to list. Original price was $2600. Despite having all of these current features, and in mint condition with two remotes, I got it for $400. I still haven't used 1/3rd of the features.
 
I'm with you when it comes to something like a monitor. But when it comes to something that's an investment such as an AV system particularly a high end one. I think quality construction shouldn't exclude quality aesthetics.

Everything in my system except the TV and speakers is positioned out of sight, behind the listening/viewing area. I don't like the distractions of the equipment lights/LEDs. Yeah, some of it can be shut off but it's no bother at all when it's all behind.
 
After the OB's took over my listening room I found a new home for four Frugal Horns. Even an entry level Yamaha 5.1 lost nothing to the big honking $$$$ Marantz AVR that died from congestive heart failure.

P8080048.jpg
 
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If you shop smart you can pick up a pretty good AVR for your home theater that does what you need it to do for pretty cheap, even new. You just can't hold it to the same level of expectation as your 2 channel audio gear.
Next time around (when my Yamaha AVR dies) I will look into separates, but I know that will add up quickly and I will still have to keep replacing the processor every few years to keep up with the technology (and cabling) change.

AVR's are a throw away borrowed piece of gear. Get 4 or 5 or more years out of it and move on if you feel you watch enough television and movies. If you don't mind having to push a few more buttons when you are switching around, running the video portion direct from source to TV allows the AVR's focus to remain on the sound which doesn't seem to be changing too much really and you can pick up a TOTL piece that is just a little older that does 7.2 for cheap.
 
1992 is vintage now? I doubt it. Old maybe but not vintage surely?

It's 25 years old....... So it's vintage. And it's old. Just not OLD VINTAGE ....

As it's been in pretty much continuous use since new it doesn't seem old.
 
Multi-channel processors also depreciate quickly.
Because that's the part that changes - not so much the amplifier. :)

2-3 years ago I picked up a 5 year old TOTL Marantz processor, replete with HDMI switching, balanced inputs & outputs, tuner with HD radio, internet connectivity, 7.2 analog I/O, 24/192 DAC, and more multi-channel processing than I know to list. Original price was $2600. Despite having all of these current features, and in mint condition with two remotes, I got it for $400. I still haven't used 1/3rd of the features.
Reason for replacement?

I paid $440 for a new Emotiva UMC-200 four years ago and don't find any reason to replace it. It has fast HDMI switching, supports a dozen different audio formats, 3D video (have a few of them), ARC control to TV, offers parametric EQ and has useful bass management. Have network connectivity with Samsung monitor, Roku and Oppo 103.

I agree that most gee whiz *features* are mostly useless. I use mine for HT duty only and let the source determine the sound output mode. I find that synthesized surround or multi-channel modes sound - well synthesized. Pass.

Eventually when I'm interested enough to get 4k, I'll need to replace mine.
 
The best amplifier value in the world is a USED high end AVR . Also, if you can live with external HDMI switching box, you can get get a fantastic sounding HT seperates system for peanuts. I got bitten by the HT scam when I paid a king's ransom for my B&K Reference 30 HT preamp only to see the Reference 50 come out less than a year later and the 70 a couple of years after that.

5.1 is good enough for me folks! If it's good enough for you then seek out 90's high end separates and AVRs. Not to mention including fist generation Definitive Technology powered towers in that search The BP 2000, 2002 and the tl versions of those speakers can be found online for a fraction of the original cost and will blow you away with how good they sound.
 
The Adventures of Robin Hood, The Wizard of Oz, Double Indemnity, Citizen Kane and The Searchers will sound their best through a single Altec VOT or Duplex; preferably but not necessarily driven by a "tubey" sounding amplifier.
 
Because that's the part that changes - not so much the amplifier. :)

Reason for replacement?

The guy who sold it had been given a new $20,000 HT system by his wife for his birthday. I drove up to look at the Marantz and they had a Porsche, a Vette, and a Mercedes in the driveway. Guy just wanted to pick up a little pocket change on his old system. He was selling all of his amps too at big discounts.
 
I had a Kenwood mid line entry with Dolby surround sound. I forget the model # but it was around $600.

I paid extra for the rack.

I couldn't take it back fast enough. Didn't do anything well. I tried all the different settings and was extremely disappointed.

Remote contol volume was only thing I liked.

I did keep the rack though.
You really have to get totl or near and not Kenwood.The totl Yamaha offerings from the early 2000s continue to blow my mind.
 
High end AV receivers, worst investment in audio? Probably, if you buy new. Some people are OK with that. OTOH, I built my surround system using tube amps.

You don’t need an AVR (or pre-processor) to play multi-channel digital recordings (e.g., SACD, Blu-ray audio, and Blu-ray video). An Oppo universal player (e.g. UDP-205) will decode any digital recording. The Oppo UDP-205 has built-in "pre-amp" functionality, including selectable downmixing (e.g., 7.1, 5.1, 5.0, 2.1, 2.0), bass management (i.e., configurable subwoofer crossover), and volume control.


Only in the audio rhelm. The video output is only HDMI, so is not being decoded to analog. If you have 1080i/720p component video, you're out of luck.

This is why I just bought an Oppo-95 complete with streaming stick for use with my Yamaha RX-Z9. ;)

BTW, what I haven't seen mentioned is the longevity of the older TOTL equipment. I bought my Yamaha RZ-Z9, new, the first time there was ever a sale on them, reducing the price by 10%. I paid $4,050+ tax.

That was over 15 years ago and the unit is used 4 - 5 hours a day, every day, since that time without failure! It still looks and plays like new. Does anyone here think a new receiver is going to have that kind of durability?
 
Yep, which is why a new one is so awful “investment-wise”. But if you can let someone else take the depreciation hit... marvelous!

Absolutely. Too bad the processors are also so expensive. But the good news is that from 5.1 to 11.2, they all sound great and if I'm not mistaken, most DVD and streaming options are backwards compatible to Dolby Digital 5.1, not sure about the first gen dolby surround, but I'll bet it wouldn't make too much of a difference.
 
Only in the audio rhelm. The video output is only HDMI, so is not being decoded to analog. If you have 1080i/720p component video, you're out of luck.

This is why I just bought an Oppo-95 complete with streaming stick for use with my Yamaha RX-Z9. ;)

BTW, what I haven't seen mentioned is the longevity of the older TOTL equipment. I bought my Yamaha RZ-Z9, new, the first time there was ever a sale on them, reducing the price by 10%. I paid $4,050+ tax.

That was over 15 years ago and the unit is used 4 - 5 hours a day, every day, since that time without failure! It still looks and plays like new. Does anyone here think a new receiver is going to have that kind of durability?
That's how I have my home theater setup, been that way for years. I went through most of the Uber receivers as a test to see which ones were the best sounding to my ears and to see how they stacked up against Seperates. I am currently using a Yamaha RXZ-1 with an Oppo udp 203 and have a 4k setup and couldn't be happier. I am also currently using the big Yamaha ad. Preamp to my Aragon 4004 MKII, I put it against a couple other preamp configurations and to me the yamaha was the best sounding. But back on track these older ubers like @superdog said from around 00-08 punch way above there weight and can compete with many Seperates sound wise, but the best thing about them is there very inexpensive now compared to there retail and when used with say an Oppo via its analog inputs you get exceptional sound that is still up to date with current recievers.

Audiofreak71
 
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