Cable - audible differences?

Na.....they are just happy to pay the price (or too embarrassed to say they can't really tell any difference) because they have more money than they know what to do with.

The audio shop/pro tells them to get such and such a cable to match their 250k system so they do it. Could they honestly tell the difference between the 10k cable or even a 1k cable? Do they possess amazing golden ears that can discern such finitely small differences in sound reproduction (if any at all)?

I doubt it.

I'm not suffering from envy wank factor either although if money was flooding in faster than I could possibly spend it then sure, I'd go nuts on whatever I wanted.

Discussing gear that is astronomically priced and very hard to quantity when it comes to performance is a bit like comparing the taste of salts from around the world. They all contain the same basic chemical make up and do the same thing (season food, reproduce music) but can you really tell the difference? (salt from the Himalayas compared to normal table salt) (an excellent $150 cable to a 10k cable). Top chief's argue over whether where the salt comes from makes any difference to the taste all the time. Same with audio cables. If you are spending 10 times on salt compared to another restaurant then of course you are going to tell your customers it tastes better.

Can your customers really really tell though?

Same with audio cables. They know they are getting "a premium product" as it's reflected in the amount of money lifted out of the wallet but does that mean it sounds that much better to them?

At least things like supercars, mega yachts etc can actually be measured to differentiate the purchases unlike hifi cables.

Sorry to go on a bit, I just find the type of gear you are talking about extremely hard to differentiate. If looks are the main difference then you could argue they are more pieces of artwork (still generally a liability not an assest) that also reproduce music extremely well. I get that, I really do, but to say the 10k-20k cable sounds measurably and audibly different to a quality cable us mere mortals would consider buying is simply confirmation bias or somebody justifying to themselves spending the money (cause it looks bad ass).
 
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I'm not "crapping on the thread". I do think good quality cables can make a difference. Do 10k cables sound measurably different to $150 cables? :dunno:

I don't have 250k spare to spend on audio gear so I can have a voice in here so no more from me in this thread.
 
The Cutting Edge is for those who are passionate about actually trying things for themselves with systems that are revealing enough to show differences. Then we discuss them without dissing others who do have revealing systems and who can hear differences.
 
Understood......

I've got a 20k system but not in the same league as you guys so I'll spectate from the sidelines :thumbsup:
 
I'm not "crapping on the thread". I do think good quality cables can make a difference. Do 10k cables sound measurably different to $150 cables? :dunno:

I don't have 250k spare to spend on audio gear so I can have a voice in here so no more from me in this thread.


Sound and Measurable are two different things in this hobby. And again, the higher cost cable probably will sound "Different" than than the cheaper one but the question is what %. And for the people with the money to spend, they are more than happy to get a .5% increase in performance.
 
^^^^

That's what I am talking about....Real World Experience

Sounding Different does not always mean Sounding Better.
 
Yup Snow, strands of very stiff wire is the only way to do speakerwires. Anything else will reduce bass-dynamic and soundstage++ as you correctly observed. The (separately isolated) strands needs to have an area of at least 9awg each to get clear of any bass-compression. Thinner strands like 12awg will still compress the bassdynamics even if they clearly outperforms all kinds of "high-end" factory-cables.
Could you share a bit more about your theory of 9AWG cables being clear of any bass-compression, while 12AWG is masked by a cloudy veil of compressed bass? To my limited way of thinking, the only way to get compression in a cable is if it has a non-linear resistance due to current flowing through it. In all my years, I have never met a cable that can change its resistance. In fact, every resistance guide I've read has never stated values based on current flow. It is what it is at all currents.

I guess through dumb luck I wire my woofers with 5AWG cables (with 8AWG inside the cabinets).
 
Understood......

I've got a 20k system but not in the same league as you guys so I'll spectate from the sidelines :thumbsup:

I'm confused, you have $20K worth of gear but it's not revealing enough to let you hear the difference between a pair of Kimber PBJs and TOTL Synergistic Cables (if you could try them both)?

Except for my CDP, my main system is from the early 90's, and for original owner, did cost $20K. My room is not really treated but I can hear those types of differences as well as when I just replaced all the stock 16 and 18 gauge power cords.

Maybe you would like to share what all your gear is and we can discuss why it's not revealing enough for these simple real world tests?
 
I'm confused, you have $20K worth of gear but it's not revealing enough to let you hear the difference between a pair of Kimber PBJs and TOTL Synergistic Cables (if you could try them both)?
I think with people who want to just assume and follow others online with preconceived views without trying for themselves tend to make huge assumptions as to what's needed.

Some people will spend a ton of money on big components buying far more than they need stacking it all together.

It's kinda like phono cartridges that are small and really not seen. Some will buy $500 tables every few months looking for a sound change and owning 4 decks. Meanwhile when you tell them to go buy a $1000 cartridge and put it on their $500 table they say the table isn't worth that and keep using the same $200 MM cart.

They don't find value in small components even though what I mentioned would have brought far more SQ change and cost less in the long run.

I also find it funny with this preconceived thought on cables, the naysayer makes hug leaps. They go right to prices in the $10,000 and up generalizing the whole topic. I have a pretty nice system but my cables and IC are all below $300 a pair. Now that's still expensive for the guy that thinks more than $25 is a wast, but no they don't want to think about everything in between.
 
The AR Tube Pre Amp is "WHY" your system is revealing.

I have recently convinced myself that a really good pre amp is key to a good revealing system and it will help lesser speakers and amps shine better than if using a lesser pre amp.
 
Could you share a bit more about your theory of 9AWG cables being clear of any bass-compression, while 12AWG is masked by a cloudy veil of compressed bass? To my limited way of thinking, the only way to get compression in a cable is if it has a non-linear resistance due to current flowing through it. In all my years, I have never met a cable that can change its resistance. In fact, every resistance guide I've read has never stated values based on current flow. It is what it is at all currents.

I guess through dumb luck I wire my woofers with 5AWG cables (with 8AWG inside the cabinets).

My conclusions has wery little to do with any theorys, it is all based on jaw-dropping experiences trying out "crazy" wiring that every educated audiophile would tell me made no sense. You know, skin-effect and other "scientific" calculations. But when they hear my system they allways ask the same, "what is the secret behind the lifelike dynamics.." No1 is huge solid wiring.

12awg (solid) is not in any way "clouded" but your amp will sound like a smaller one, not have the authority and control that a 9-7awg solid core will open up for. Passive filters needs to be made by the same thinking btw.

Note; this sounds crazy to most audiophiles, Guess that`s why so wery few have tryed. They claim to "know better". And every enegineer will tell you that a stranded wire will perform as good as or even better than a solid core wire. And it siply too cheap for some snobs.
 
4-2-7, spot on

I was just recently going thru my old Audio Video files and receipts doing some cleanup and found all the ones from all the cables I bought back in the 90s, which I still use today in one setup or another.

Most ICs are Tara Labs and range between $40 and $100

My main system, which I bought as a system, Pre, Amp, Speakers, and Cables came with 2 pair of Synergistic Kaleidoscope ICs which listed for $350 in early 90s and a 14' pair of matching Synergistic speaker cables that cost the original owner $1400.

I don't think I would ever drop that much on speaker cables but they did better my Tara Labs Prism speaker cables.
 
My conclusions has wery little to do with any theorys, it is all based on jaw-dropping experiences trying out "crazy" wiring that every educated audiophile would tell me made no sense. You know, skin-effect and other "scientific" calculations. But when they hear my system they allways ask the same, "what is the secret behind the lifelike dynamics.." No1 is huge solid wiring.

12awg (solid) is not in any way "clouded" but your amp will sound like a smaller one, not have the authority and control that a 9-7awg solid core will open up for. Passive filters needs to be made by the same thinking btw.

Note; this sounds crazy to most audiophiles, Guess that`s why so wery few have tryed. They claim to "know better". And every enegineer will tell you that a stranded wire will perform as good as or even better than a solid core wire. And it siply too cheap for some snobs.
Isn't this also the same reason an aftermarket 12gauge Power cord ,makes a system sound better than the stock 16gauge barely shielded cable does?
 
Isn't this also the same reason an aftermarket 12gauge Power cord ,makes a system sound better than the stock 16gauge barely shielded cable does?

Yes, a bit of the same puzzle. Although power with higher voltage does not need the same area, 12awg is recommended as a minimum.
 
If you've ever tried making your own cables, then some of the prices really don't seem crazy. I will probably never pay "hundreds" of dollars for a cable, but there is something to be said for a nice neat matching set of custom length cabling. Is it worth a few hundred bucks to have a clean and orderly installation behind the rack? Some may say that absolutely not. They are fine with hidden spaghetti. Not me. I like to look behind the rack and see neat and clean "piping"

Now I have no scientific proof of this, but I will swear that neat cables make my system sound better.
 
If you've ever tried making your own cables, then some of the prices really don't seem crazy. I will probably never pay "hundreds" of dollars for a cable, but there is something to be said for a nice neat matching set of custom length cabling. Is it worth a few hundred bucks to have a clean and orderly installation behind the rack? Some may say that absolutely not. They are fine with hidden spaghetti. Not me. I like to look behind the rack and see neat and clean "piping"

Now I have no scientific proof of this, but I will swear that neat cables make my system sound better.
They do because if you have wires crossing wires and ICs crossing PCs you will have issues. I have a tough time with my rack because it houses 3 different systems but I am working to route all PCs one way and all ICs away from them and not crossing.
 
Below is a graph from Jensen concerning coax cable's impedance vs frequency. Notice the impedance rises as the frequency is lowered, confirming what Mr. Galen Gareis and Gautam Raja concluded. This graph is for RG58U coax cable.
View attachment 1080229

Can you tell me where that graph is from? You say Jensen...did you mean Belden? In any case, can you point me to the source?
 
I started this thread simply to point people toward something that seemed like it might be interesting in the realm of cables and the science that seems to be going into some of them. The manufacturer certainly has the resources to fund some "real science", so I'm hopeful that something of value will be presented.

Since this is the "cutting edge" and real world experience is important, let me assure you that my interest in cable is from "real world" experience. As a former high-end Dealer, I've played with a wide variety of cables on a wide variety of equipment. The cable lines I have the most experience with are: Cardas, Audioquest, Nordost, Twisted-Pair Designs, Harmonic Technologies, Canare, Mogami, Acoustic Zen and Westlake Audio (yes they make cable products). There has to be some scientific explanation to why various cables sound different (better is subjective, but they do sound "different"). I'm hoping that this series of articles in Copper Magazine brings some enlightenment to what is seemingly somewhat of a black art.

Personally, I don't think we need to debate which cables are best, who is wasting money or not wasting money, as that is all irrelevant to the topic. An interesting look at the science behind cable products is all that I intended to bring your attention to. As the two articles thus far seem to jive pretty well with what the only credentialed cable "engineer" that I know personally has said about the subject - my interest has been piqued. I hope that all of you enjoy attempting to digest the information being presented. Its a bit over my head, but I find it interesting nonetheless.
 
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