Analog Optical Recording

Technical issues aside (and probably off-target based on OldADC's background), this very neat solution is a technology/product in search of a problem, which never turns out well. Getting the industry to adopt a new analog format seems Sisyphean at best.

Maybe it's not a mass-market product, though. Maybe there is a niche for superb quality analog reproductions of high-quality analog sources - kind of extending the MFSL model to include new media. If the playback machine is priced like a moderate turntable + cartridge, maybe a small number of reproduction facilities (the expensive, industry-changing part) could put enough of just the right kinds of music out to those people who would buy into it for the superb reproduction alone.

Money talks. The rights holders get an opportunity to sell the same thing again, so there is motivation with enough of a market or a sufficiently low entry cost. Risk for the buyer to try a new format might be pretty low - using the razors abd blades model, presumably there is money to be made on each disc sold, so the players might even be sold at or below cost. Small production runs of hardware seem to be pretty feasible these days, so a small market might be feasible.

The question of course would be how small is small, and is it big enough :)

I kind of see this as similar to other luxury high end goods....Swiss watches vs. Seiko, Ferrari vs. Toyota, Gucci vs Coach vs rack brands for ladies handbags. I am in full agreement with you. If it isn't simply Sisyphean, then the how small is small and is that big enough is exactly on point!! Thanks.
 
http://www.ru.nl/hfml/research/levitation/diamagnetic/

https://journals.aps.org/pr/abstract/10.1103/PhysRev.123.1613

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earnshaw's_theorem

The one topic no one has taken up since my original post is a diamond/cantilever that is magnetically suspended and damped. 3 pages in and I completely got away with that one? Hah!!!

Read the three references above on diamagnetic levitation, pyrolytic graphite, and stability criteria (Earnshaw's Theorem) for magnetic suspension and levitation and you might can envision how this would work out.
 
Well, sir, with 20 posters on this thread, one would have to assume something like 5x that who are reading but not posting and with that number, there are likely at least 2 readers who are industry observers searching these threads using search engines tuned to find interesting IP or violations of their company's IP. Just a reality. It works that way in all tech industry these days. Based on that, I have revealed as much or more technical info on the concept that a reasonable care and concern for defensible IP would allow. You can't tell everything in public and then assert patent rights over open-source discussions. We'll just have to leave it at that. Regrettable in some ways but a business reality.

The rest of the discussion is more about price point, market sizes and segmentation, cost of capitalization, etc. And there are some very good pieces of the discussion in these regards.

Ok, it have sense to be careful. You dont need to explain precise how that stuff work but some hint will be good. ;)
About price... I mean that price is not questionable for medium but for equipment yes, it is very questionable to be for everyone who want good sounding recorder and player. Today we can to buy very nice Hi quality CD player and turntables for less then $1000, e.g. Pioneer DV-300 for $20 have signal from SPDIF output better then Goldmund itself. TI produce OPA1611/1612 Op-Amps with more than excelent signal output. I think that today Hi-End production of equipment is another dimension and that equipment you can sell for $30.000 but how many pieces. As you see MQA is nice idea but what we have from MQA as normal living humans?! I`m not Bill Gates or Elon Musk to go into shop and put finger on one thing in shop and say please can you pack me that lovely Goldmund CD player and pay $6000 from my credit card then go to cofee as if nothing had happened before and as if I had not spent those $6000. Today market is all about price, if you have cheap thing for everyone, you are in, if not then you are out. You can see example VHS vs. BETA. Personaly I think that is good idea.
 
How much do you think it'd require to get to the proof-of-principle demo?

Only one spy picture from finished product will be good. I think that on this way nobody can to understand what happen inside and your discovery will be safe. If you have one sample from recorded and played sound like Pink Noise in high bitrate this will be more then excelent and i think that all will be happy. Btw, I`m happy now for your great discovery. ;)
 
you mean something functionally similar to optical film sound, but recorded microscopically on a disc? I would imagine wow and flutter would be of major concern, as well as an adequate signal to noise ratio. Would be interesting to hear what your ideas are about how to make this a practical idea?
 
We are misunderstandig... Did you have working project or not or that is only idea? Can you record and playback sound from this equipment or not? I can understand from your words then you cant to produce analog sound from that equipment yet but you can to record analog audio signal on this medium?! If you can to produce sound from recorded media you can also to capture this sound on FLAC or WAV format with 192kHz/24bit audio sample rate... or not?!
Sorry if I'm too annoyed but I'm pretty curious and I'm very interested in this new sound reproduction principle. It sound to me as very interested idea, something new on our audio world...
 
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As 99.7% of new music coming out is recorded digitally, processed digitally and mastered digitally, I don't really see the point. You' have to have extraordinary abilities in marketing combined with a ridiculous number of connections in the industry to cause a sea change in the way modern music is recorded and released. If you can't do that, and it simply becomes another analog way to listen to digitally created music, it's technically impossible for it to improve on what we already have in digital lossless audio formats. You can't put information in that isn't in the samples. If your only application is in modernizing old completely analog recordings, your market will be extremely limited and again, your system will be hamstrung by the limitations of the technologies previously used to record.

You can have the most perfect analog playback device this side of a live concert but if there's no music to be played with it or the music available is pre-compromised by it's previous format, it's a rather fruitless endeavor. I have to agree with @restorer-john on that point.

I'm also of the opinion that the superiority of analog and vinyl especially is primarily euphonic as opposed to any technical advantage. I'd not be surprised if a "perfect" analog system ended up sounding rather digital. Combine that with the elimination of the experience and nostalgia of vinyl playback and even the most hardcore analog supporters are likely to question the benefit.

On the other hand, a new cartridge tech sounds interesting and fun. No reason not to explore that avenue. If it sounds good and can be used with standard turntables there's already a market for it.

Cheers
Nathan
 
Writing a disc would be pretty close to the kind of process for mass production of CDs. You can dang sure write them way faster than you want to read them out.

Commercial CDs are not "written", they are mechanically stamped, just like an LP record, with a physical impression made into the plastic, an entirely mechanical process. This means they can (or could) be made in vast numbers very quickly. Could your creation process be made mechanical ?

Why do you folks keep invoking LaserDisc? Of course this is nothing like 40 yr old laser disc technology. Jeez, you'd think the laser and optics field hasn't accomplished a bit of progress over the last 40 yrs. Guess you don't believe in fiber optics, networks, laser surgery, laser weapons development, or any of that jazz. Free your mind, man. The world has moved on significantly.

The fidelity limitations of Laserdisc / Laservision are not a consequence of the optics or the laser, they are a limitation of the modulation system used.
 
If I get some of this right, duplication is only by laser write.
It would be interesting as a modern equivalent of minimalist DtD live take recordings. The process main features would be very wide freq response, better than LP stereo separation, and touchless analogue recording and playback. No tape head or stylus wear or head/stylus alignment issues in either recording or playback. Also possible is constant velocity playback to assure even resolution capability across the entire disc.
 
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If I get some of this right, duplication is only by laser write.
It would be interesting as a modern equivalent of minimalist DtD live take recordings. The process main features would be very wide freq response, better than LP stereo separation, and touchless analogue recording and playback. No tape head or stylus wear or head,/stylus alignment issues in either recording or playback. Also possible is constant velocity playback to assure even resolution capability across the entire disc.

Yes, what with moving parts, they missalignment never happen?! ;) :)
 
Yes, what with moving parts, they missalignment never happen?! ;) :)
"Never" is a long time. The process as I see it should be as reliable as any other high quality optical disc tracking system. Alignment for optimum pickup of the two polarized light channels should be easy enough to ensure.
 
I could be totally wrong on my understanding of his proposal, take my posts with that caveat.
 
The challenges of new media formats cannot be understated. I believe I have agreed that is so.
Yes, but is the tech available to the recording industry? Digital had a nearly 20 year head start in the studios before the consumer could play it back directly.
 
If I get some of this right, duplication is only by laser write.
It would be interesting as a modern equivalent of minimalist DtD live take recordings. The process main features would be very wide freq response, better than LP stereo separation, and touchless analogue recording and playback. No tape head or stylus wear or head/stylus alignment issues in either recording or playback. Also possible is constant velocity playback to assure even resolution capability across the entire disc.

Right on all accounts, Pio.
 
Yes, but is the tech available to the recording industry? Digital had a nearly 20 year head start in the studios before the consumer could play it back directly.
The tech isn't available today. The materials that are used to capture the recording are just now being understood in their properties. Well, in the last 15 yrs or so but the chemistry guys aren't all that fast in getting stuff out to application space. Their always worried about stuff like toxicity, environmentals, etc. So there isn't broad knowledge of the materials or the process I am discussing outside of a fairly narrow space of chemical spectroscopy. Yeah, its a long row to hoe to bring such a system to market.
 
Only one spy picture from finished product will be good. I think that on this way nobody can to understand what happen inside and your discovery will be safe. If you have one sample from recorded and played sound like Pink Noise in high bitrate this will be more then excelent and i think that all will be happy. Btw, I`m happy now for your great discovery. ;)

Thanks. No spy pictures available yet. But when the time comes, if it comes, I'll be happy to post here first. Most likely, a developmental picture will look like every other optical lab bench....no matter what you are doing, it is amazing how all optical/laser lab setups end up looking the same with the mounts, positioners, lenses, beamsplitters, etc. You can be in the game as deep as anyone and stare at another guy's table and not be able to figure out what he is really trying to do without him telling you.
 
you mean something functionally similar to optical film sound, but recorded microscopically on a disc? I would imagine wow and flutter would be of major concern, as well as an adequate signal to noise ratio. Would be interesting to hear what your ideas are about how to make this a practical idea?
It really isn't like film sound. While film sound was analog, it was essentially a variable transmission gate. The blocked part and the clear part changed with the frequency letting more or less light through. This works fundamentally different.
 
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