Integrated better than separates? I think so...

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Itself at the source, it doesn't sound like anything.

What it causes however, results in all sorts of audible effects depending on the equipment and the type/strength of RFI/EMI.

Intermodulation issues, stability, oscillations, buzzes, hums, residual noise floor fluctuations and modulations in analog. And in digital, it's a all those, plus timing deviations, aliasing, non-linearites etc.

Bah. I'm just going to build one of them Faraday cages and sit in that. :)

https://www.sciencealert.com/a-tale...day-cage-to-stop-customers-using-their-phones

All due respects to you, do not know your background other than you appear to be an audio technician and not a retailer. The other guys may or may not have audio industry connections either as retailers or reviewers. I am neither which should be obvious given my pundit position. The examples of RFI/EMI effects that have specific evidence are radar and cell phones, not audio gear. These devices are built specifically to receive radio emissions or reflections and are susceptible to jamming and interference. I accept that. How this applies to audio gear such as integrated amps, preamps, and amps is unclear from the many threads here at good ole AK and from the hundreds of audio reviews that I have read from the professional magazines and amateur reviewers. What is missing even from your description above is the smoking gun which should take the form of, "when playing this song on this gear in this specific circumstance, I hear this which is a defect caused by RFI/EMI and can be mitigated by the application of shielded cable or other applicable device." In other words, a problem looking for a solution. It's sort of like bigfoot and yowie. There are firm believers but there is no clear and convincing evidence.
 
There is are a couple of possible examples of RFI/EMI interference in audio. Speakers and mechanical relays have magnets which presumably emit a magnetic field. Speaker magnets can effect CRT monitors. Application of shielding to the magnet will mitigate the effect. However, non--shielded magnets are the norm rather than the exception in audio speakers. If RFI/EMI was interfering with the signal, we would see that inside speakers themselves in which the wiring is almost never shielded and the crossover is in close proximity. Magnets in mechanical relays are close to the audio signal. RFI/EMI may be a specific claim made by designers who omit speaker relays but I have not read that claim anywhere.
 
You forgot about transformers. Good thing is I know when to give up and stop wasting my time. :)

It amazes me how some people think audio equipment is some special kind of electronics that somehow act different using exactly the same components as other pieces of gear.
 
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There is are a couple of possible examples of RFI/EMI interference in audio. Speakers and mechanical relays have magnets which presumably emit a magnetic field. Speaker magnets can effect CRT monitors. Application of shielding to the magnet will mitigate the effect. However, non--shielded magnets are the norm rather than the exception in audio speakers. If RFI/EMI was interfering with the signal, we would see that inside speakers themselves in which the wiring is almost never shielded and the crossover is in close proximity. Magnets in mechanical relays are close to the audio signal. RFI/EMI may be a specific claim made by designers who omit speaker relays but I have not read that claim anywhere.
Speaker circuits are low impedance and relatively high voltage and current, so relatively impervious to household low-level RFI/EMI, though they may pick it up from outside the cabinet and bring it in. Speaker leads run outside the equipment cabinet of high impedance, low signal level separates like preamplifiers, so not likely to cause EMI, and inside the cabinet of integrated amplifiers the preamplifier signal leads are generally shielded and internal speaker leads are usually very short. Speaker relays are DC-energised, so not a source of continuous RFI or EMI, only a brief burst when they open or close. Sometimes, the whole preamplifier section is shielded, but most consumer integrateds have minimal shielding so the interference between sections could easily raise the noise floor enough to be audible.

That may be why some prefer separates to integrated units: separates are inherently better shielded against RFI/EMI from one component affecting another, assuming the interconnects are well-shielded, and so the noise floor may be lower.
 
You forgot about transformers. Good thing is I know when to give up and stop wasting my time. :)

It amazes me how some people think audio equipment is some special kind of electronics that somehow act different using exactly the same components as other pieces of gear.

You have added nothing to this discussion.
 
Speaker circuits are low impedance and relatively high voltage and current, so relatively impervious to household low-level RFI/EMI, though they may pick it up from outside the cabinet and bring it in. Speaker leads run outside the equipment cabinet of high impedance, low signal level separates like preamplifiers, so not likely to cause EMI, and inside the cabinet of integrated amplifiers the preamplifier signal leads are generally shielded and internal speaker leads are usually very short. Speaker relays are DC-energised, so not a source of continuous RFI or EMI, only a brief burst when they open or close. Sometimes, the whole preamplifier section is shielded, but most consumer integrateds have minimal shielding so the interference between sections could easily raise the noise floor enough to be audible.

That may be why some prefer separates to integrated units: separates are inherently better shielded against RFI/EMI from one component affecting another, assuming the interconnects are well-shielded, and so the noise floor may be lower.

Makes sense, we can bring this discussion back to the OP's premise. RFI and EMI may be a factor in noise floor reduction but to the extent that it improves objective performance can be measured. I've seen a small sample of amps and receivers under square wave testing and seek out gear that has the best objective accuracy. While my sample is not great, I do own very good examples of separates, receivers, and integrateds that can pass near perfect square waves. Separates by far the darkest sounding with greater depth. (I hate those terms but that's the best I can come up with.)
 
Makes sense, we can bring this discussion back to the OP's premise. RFI and EMI may be a factor in noise floor reduction but to the extent that it improves objective performance can be measured

Here's an example I live with each and every day with my test gear:

My distortion meters (analog and digital) and oscilloscopes/analyzers (analog and digital), are very much affected by RFI/EMI from WiFi, be that from my router or the PCs nearby, especially when digging down into the noise floor of gear. I must disable the network adapters in Win7 and fight with Win10 to shut them down or I get some completely erroneous readings on gear.

Just recently I'd finished restoring a Sony CDP-101 (world's first CD player) and was disappointed to see a 'spray' of distortion right up the spectrum on an FFT which was seemingly modulating in front of me as the machine played my test discs. I repeated the tests several times and figured it had some issues I needed to explore. Dejected, I turned off the computer and just before I shut down the external PC with the FFT running, the spectrum suddenly went clean. It was the WiFi card that had 'turned itself on' in my other PC...

I've also had nasty fuzz and idle tones caused by a Yamaha network receiver sitting near a FET input phono preamp connected to a TT.

I now have a stick-it note on one piece of test gear that says "turn off WiFi!"
 
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Rated 8 ohm 150 watts / 4 ohms 300 watts

Into a nominal 8 ohm load, single-channel driven, it delivered close on 200W continuous....
.......the KAV-300i was still putting out 250Wpc into 4 ohms (both channels driven)
....and the relatively small internal heatsinks indicate that the KAV-300i will not be the amplifier of choice for continuous, flat-out duty into 4 ohms or lower loadings
An IHF 1/3-power preconditioning run was out the question, a fact confirmed by Dan D'Agostino.

Read more at https://www.stereophile.com/content...ed-amplifier-measurements#1KIhwdCO8rOXUR4q.99

Did you see my post earlier in the thread regarding this "doubling into 4ohm" spec??

What's to stop a company from simply claiming an 8ohm output that is simply 1/2 of their 4ohm?! ..If someone does a test (like Stereophile) and finds the amp actually produces MORE into 8ohms, will they be shamed for not doubling power into 4?? Of course not. They'll likely be praised for over-performing on at least one of the claimed power specs.

What matters (and all that matters) is that the amp remains stable whilst driving any real-world speaker. ..And nearly all modern amplifiers do this.

Personally, I like that Musical Fidelity - who makes terrific gear - doesn't even take the bait and give a 4ohm spec. ..All of their ratings are into 8ohms. Does anyone doubt that these amps can drive pretty much any modern speaker?
 
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You have added nothing to this discussion.

Sorry you feel that particle everyday experiene is not needed in a discussion. I am just getting back into 2 channel audio and learning a ton as I go. I am open minded enough about things I have an opinion on to let experienced people educate me. Your stand seems to be just an opinion. Your side of the discussion is the easy hill to defend “I don’t buy it”, that would be like everyone trying to explain it to you just saying “because that’s how it works”.

My offer of some training on this over a few beers still stands brother ✌

:beerchug:
 
The best amplifiers in my experience, however, don't use $.50 NE5532 op amps in the signal path as McIntosh does with many components including the MA6600. Also, they have far stiffer power supplies for better dynamic swing and transparency.

So how is the sound diminished by the use of these $.50 parts? THD? S/N ratio? How?

Again, there is NO reason why a pre-amplifer cannot be joined w/ an amplifier into a single case without audibly affecting performance. The fact that companies choose to save their most elaborate feature sets or highest spec parts for separates is a matter of feature progression throughout a line of products. ..It doesn't mean those same features cannot be built into an integrated.

The fact of the matter is that some audiophiles are enamored w/ having lots of components in their system, whether or not they audibly improve performance. ..Of course, since this hobby has such distain for validity controls, theres never any evidence given by the mfg. that an amp (or separating pre from amp) sounds demonstrably better, but many of us audiophiles are so easily swayed by expectation bias that we will of course convince ourselves that it does.

Putting the pre and amp sections into separate boxes amounts to very clunky, inelegant engineering. IMHO
 
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Indeed they are. I have one, too. Also the accompanying tuner.
Have you ever had any work done on yours?

Nope. I've never run anything other than 8 ohm loads and I've never gone past 6 on the volume knob. I push a set of Klipsch F-30 towers with it. I use it with an SA-7500ii that's looped thru an RG-1 Dynamic Expander that runs the rear HPM-100 speakers. It sounds magnificent. I have the TX-9500 tuner, wish I had the 9500ii tuner but I must say the 9500 is the finest tuner I've ever owned. Keeping my eye out for an SG-9500 EQ, altho I've used my SG-9800 with the SA-9500ii, and frankly, it sounds better without the EQ, so I moved that EQ downstairs to the entertainment room. I want the SG-9500 EQ just for looks!
 
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Personally, I like that Musical Fidelity - who makes terrific gear - doesn't even take the bait and give a 4ohm spec. ..All of their ratings are into 8ohms. Does anyone doubt that these amps can drive pretty much any modern speaker?

If I had a set of speakers that dipped down into 4 ohms than I would need to know the amp could handle it.
That is the exact circumstance that got me going in HiFi. Picked up a nice vintage unit and some efficient speakers, was happy for a few months until I found some supposedly better speakers. I didn't understand that STK packs don't care for heavy loads. POOF!
Lot's of reading later I than knew about the importance of stability into heavy loads and looked for an appropriate amplifier to handle a heavy load.
If Musical Fidelity doesn't post specs for 4 ohm loads than it's automatically assumed that it can't handle it safely. That is a VERY important spec and it's omission is a tell all.

BillWojo
 
So how is the sound diminished by the use of these $.50 parts? THD? S/N ratio? How?
The best discrete devices sound better. They don't require massive amounts of corrective feedback in order to achieve linearity resulting in better transparency and focus. Lumped sum distortion measurements using uncorrelated sine waves provide information - but no useful knowledge as to how audio gear sounds playing music. I recently upgraded my garage system's DAC using discrete FET replacements for the OPA2134s used with it. Such is easy to do with socket mounted op amps.

It doesn't mean those same features cannot be built into an integrated.
They just don't.
 
The best discrete devices sound better. They don't require massive amounts of corrective feedback in order to achieve linearity resulting in better transparency and focus. Lumped sum distortion measurements using uncorrelated sine waves provide information - but no useful knowledge as to how audio gear sounds playing music. I recently upgraded my garage system's DAC using discrete FET replacements for the OPA2134s used with it. Such is easy to do with socket mounted op amps..

You're using a lot of techy sounding jargon but you haven't told me how my MA6600 would sound better if it's op-amps were, say, $3, instead $.50?? Nor have you told me why all the pricier op-amps couldn't just as easily be used in an integrated?
 
You're using a lot of techy sounding jargon but you haven't told me how my MA6600 would sound better if it's op-amps were, say, $3, instead $.50??
They wouldn't as the challenge isn't their *price*. It's the inherent design and requirements for use in a circuit. They do keep the overall price point of a component down. Which is why you find the same op amp used with inexpensive sound cards like the M Audio 2496 I use.

Do you understand that THD measurements are performed on sine waves (test tones)? Music, by contrast, is dynamically changing structures of fundamentals mixed with rich harmonics.

Replacing chip based op amps with more linear discrete devices using simpler topologies, however, can improve the sound quality. Did you follow my link (text in blue) in the previous post?
 
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The best discrete devices sound better.
Not necessarily, and not in general. Whilst there are unquestionably low-spec, noisy integrated circuit OP amps (e.g. http://www.onsemi.com/PowerSolutions/product.do?id=LMV324) used in audio equipment, it is equally possible to use high-spec integrated circuit OP amps (e.g. https://www.mouser.co.uk/new/maximic/maxopamp/).

In general, integrated circuit technology permits much better quality control, precision, noise rejection, and thermal stability over equivalent discrete devices. This is particularly true in precision-sensitive devices like DACs, where it's impossible to achieve the same precision and thermal equivalence with discrete resistor ladders than it is with integrated circuits.
 
Not necessarily, and not in general. Whilst there are unquestionably low-spec, noisy integrated circuit OP amps (e.g. http://www.onsemi.com/PowerSolutions/product.do?id=LMV324) used in audio equipment, it is equally possible to use high-spec integrated circuit OP amps (e.g. https://www.mouser.co.uk/new/maximic/maxopamp/).

In general, integrated circuit technology permits much better quality control, precision, noise rejection, and thermal stability over equivalent discrete devices. This is particularly true in precision-sensitive devices like DACs, where it's impossible to achieve the same precision and thermal equivalence with discrete resistor ladders than it is with integrated circuits.

Dave,
Why are you using tech sounding jargon? :confused:That’s the only thing that frustrates me slightly on here. You give a technical explaination, example or experience to people who have never seen the pointy end of a probe and think audio circuits are somehow different from other electrical circuits so they “don’t buy it”.
:beerchug:
 
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