Sabre DACs sounding a bit boring?

[AuFX]

My ODAC rev. b (ONLY when using external power supply instead of USB power) definitely performs like a ~$120 DAC but it sounds really great, from the bass to treble its very pleasing.

I bought the Hifime UDA9038pro, a budget DAC using Sabre 9038 Pro, and it outperforms the ODAC in seperation and detail but its painfully boring. the sound is very clean and detailed but lacks the 'body' and 'energy' of the ODAC, Music sounds very emotionless and distant and I think it is a drawback of this Sabre DAC as the ODAC simply sounds more realistic/live even with poorer detail retrieval, seperation and imaging/soundstage

The ODAC uses a Burr Brown chip (PCM1502), could those impressions be down to going from a Burr Brown to Sabre DAC? Or perhaps its a poorly implemented DAC and I should look for a different Sabre DAC?

edit: after the intial impressions with this DAC the sound has grown on me. it just has far better range in its abilities, poor recordings sound poorer, good recordings sound better. its far more interesting to listen to. where the ODAC adds the same colouration to everything.

 

[kray]

This seems to be everything I've read online about the Sabre chips. I don't have one and haven't actually heard one, but from all my research it's made me shy away from any Sabre based DAC. Obviously there's more than just the chip itself, but...

 

[gvl]

Perhaps this is how a well measuring DAC sounds like? If seriously Sabre has more tech inside, like the jitter removal and what not, I suspect in the most simple configuration when it runs in async mode it tends to overprocess the data this is the kind of sound you get.

 

[E.Auer]

One persons "Boring" could be another persons "Clean" I guess.

Expectations vary greatly. Personally I like a DAC that sounds like "Nothing"

Eric

 

[mjw21a]

I've found that using Western Electric 20awg tinned copper IC's after Sabre DAC's really improves their performance quite a lot, bringing lead vocals and instruments slightly forward in the mix. Without that, yes, quite boring.

 

[AuFX]

This seems to be everything I've read online about the Sabre chips. I don't have one and haven't actually heard one, but from all my research it's made me shy away from any Sabre based DAC. Obviously there's more than just the chip itself, but...

I think the main problem is the bass. you can hear it, its all there, but it has no density. this Sabre DAC uses a OPA1622 in the output stage, people say the output stage has the biggest impact on sound but I have used OPA1612 and OPA1622 in my amp and they have some of the best bass Ive heard from an op amp, punchy , weighty and no bleed/smear. the quality of this DACs sound is very good so It would be nice to try a different one to see if this really is a Sabre thing but it already seems like it might be

 

[AuFX]

btw do you have any suggestions for an alternative?

 

[kray]

btw do you have any suggestions for an alternative?

Hard to say. I use the Maverick D2 tube DAC which uses the old trusty AD1955 chip with sparkos discrete op-amps and really enjoy it...

But I’ve been really interested in getting a R2R style DAC next like the Soekris 1321

If I were to try another DS style DAC I’d prob choose one with AK4497 chips

 

[Yamaki]

I like my ESS Sabre 9018 DAC chipsets.

Clean? Yes.

Clear? Always

Concise? Absolutely.

I'd call it an open and honest sound that punches superbly when the music tells it to. Of course, some system arrangements have an impact on the liveliness and punch of the music. For me, they work well with my system and they more than satisfy my listening preferences.

 

[pete_mac]

It just depends on the design. DACS are SO MUCH MORE than just the chip used.

Absolutely!!

Regarding Sabre DACs, my experience is that there are a vast number of DACs out there with a less than optimal design - they simply follow ESS's recommended circuit and datasheet and leave it at that.

Despite all the hyerbole ("Hyperstream DAC architecture, Time Domain Jitter Eliminator" et al) these chips are very sensitive to the power supply, source, clock and output stage circuitry - just the same as every other DAC chip on the market.

With all that said, the ESS chips tend towards the brighter, more revealing end of the spectrum IMHO.

I've very much enjoyed the sound of my current Gieseler Klein DAC with the AKM AK4490EQ chip. It treads the middle ground between my previous R2R PCM1704UK DACs and the brigher Sabre DACs. Again, implementation is king (and this is a very good implementation!) but I'm sold!

 

[kray]

EVERY tube DAC I have heard sounds like shit and they seem to have very high background noise. That includes the high dollar lampizator DAC's.

Why have a tube on a digital end? Just get a well designed DAC.

Thanks I enjoy listening to complete shit

 

[kray]

Just saying what I heard. May at shows like AXPONA too. Where they have super high end ones, which are supposedly designed better.

I get it, but if I thought my DAC sounded like shit, obviously I'd have bought a new one yesterday. Also my DAC has both a tube out and a pre out that bypasses the tube all together.

 

[mjw21a]

Absolutely!!

Regarding Sabre DACs, my experience is that there are a vast number of DACs out there with a less than optimal design - they simply follow ESS's recommended circuit and datasheet and leave it at that.

Despite all the hyerbole ("Hyperstream DAC architecture, Time Domain Jitter Eliminator" et al) these chips are very sensitive to the power supply, source, clock and output stage circuitry - just the same as every other DAC chip on the market.

With all that said, the ESS chips tend towards the brighter, more revealing end of the spectrum IMHO.

I've very much enjoyed the sound of my current Gieseler Klein DAC with the AKM AK4490EQ chip. It treads the middle ground between my previous R2R PCM1704UK DACs and the brigher Sabre DACs. Again, implementation is king (and this is a very good implementation!) but I'm sold!

Agree 100%. The Gieseler DAC's are phenomenonal. Love my Gieseler Groß. I'm waiting for Clay to release the budget version of it so I can get one for my second system. He's still busily building Groß DAC's though

 

[wushuliu]

Personal taste aside, the ODAC uses the older and lesser Sabre ES9023 while Hifime uses the best Sabre chip, the ES9038Pro. This chip is head and shoulders above the old ES9018/9023 etc. I used to have the ODAC. I thought it was awful. I had to mod it to take away the harsh and overly bright presentation. My mod must have been on the right track because I then compared my modded ODAC to the Audioquest Dragonfly (v.1) and they sounded almost exactly alike. The Dragonfly also used the 9023.

Then again with USB DACs there are so many other factors to consider - especially the source. Pete mac is correct - If the source quality and power supply is poor, the DAC will suffer, always.

Personally, I find the Hifime UDA38Pro to be one of the best dacs I've heard. Don't know the OP's setup, but the new Hifime it does *not* sound like a typical Sabre dac. It actually sounds more like an AKM. It's more bold, enveloping, with amazing mids. Other owners seem to think likewise. But I use low noise linear power supplies and my PC uses the lowest latency possible. It is not a dac to just add on any old usb source and call it a day. As Pete mac said, implementation is particularly important for the Sabre DACs.

And if the OP finds the Hifime 'boring' compared to the ODAC, I'm going to guess it's because the Hifime has much lower distortion. All his descriptors point to that IMO. Cause it is the *least* boring Sabre I've heard.

 

[wushuliu]

EVERY tube DAC I have heard sounds like shit and they seem to have very high background noise. That includes the high dollar lampizator DAC's.

Why have a tube on a digital end? Just get a well designed DAC.

Oh dear.

 

[wushuliu]

I see that the ODAC chip was replaced in 2015 from the ES9023 to the Burr Brown. Color me skeptical but I'm going to chalk that up to it just being cheaper to implement. And if the OP really wants advice he needs to provide some actual info about the setup. If we're talking a laptop or phone for instance, well... expectations should be set accordingly.

 

[AuFX]

Personal taste aside, the ODAC uses the older and lesser Sabre ES9023 while Hifime uses the best Sabre chip, the ES9038Pro. This chip is head and shoulders above the old ES9018/9023 etc. I used to have the ODAC. I thought it was awful. I had to mod it to take away the harsh and overly bright presentation. My mod must have been on the right track because I then compared my modded ODAC to the Audioquest Dragonfly (v.1) and they sounded almost exactly alike. The Dragonfly also used the 9023.

Then again with USB DACs there are so many other factors to consider - especially the source. Pete mac is correct - If the source quality and power supply is poor, the DAC will suffer, always.

Personally, I find the Hifime UDA38Pro to be one of the best dacs I've heard. Don't know the OP's setup, but the new Hifime it does *not* sound like a typical Sabre dac. It actually sounds more like an AKM. It's more bold, enveloping, with amazing mids. Other owners seem to think likewise. But I use low noise linear power supplies and my PC uses the lowest latency possible. It is not a dac to just add on any old usb source and call it a day. As Pete mac said, implementation is particularly important for the Sabre DACs.

And if the OP finds the Hifime 'boring' compared to the ODAC, I'm going to guess it's because the Hifime has much lower distortion. All his descriptors point to that IMO. Cause it is the *least* boring Sabre I've heard.

they were using the same linear supply with LM350, what sort of supply are you using? I agree now the Hifime is definitely leagues ahead of the ODAC, it wasnt boring but in comparison the ODAC seemed a lot more fun at first. ODAC is warmer and bass has more presence ... with electronic music and hip hop it could be interpreted as better but with acoustic music its instantly clear how good the Hifime is. Its like going from the hd650 to the he560, the brighter, dryer sound brings out the best and worst of your music in a far more realistic and cleaner way.

On the he560, a planar magnetic headphone, I never understood the meaning of a 'liquid' planar sound with the ODAC, but now with the hifime it makes sense. the music just flows, there is lots of revealing treble but it is as smooth as butter. mids are heavenly, there is some very good synergy here, this is first time I heard music that sounds better than a real life performance.

a couple albums that stood out in particular:
Art Blakey and The Jazz Messengers - Moanin
Amber Rubarth - Sessions from the 17th ward

 

[wushuliu]

On the he560, a planar magnetic headphone, I never understood the meaning of a 'liquid' planar sound with the ODAC, but now with the hifime it makes sense. the music just flows, there is lots of revealing treble but it is as smooth as butter. mids are heavenly, there is some very good synergy here, this is first time I heard music that sounds better than a real life performance.

Aha. Now we're talkin. Yep, that's my impression of the Hifime as well. Glad it's working out for you!

For power supply I have two LT3045s (ultra low noise <1uV) feeding the Hifime through the USB. I have Senn 599s, so don't need the external supply. However, I believe the USB supply is critical for sound quality since it feeds the usb receiver and the clocks (the external supply does not, it's mainly for the opamp current output). Simplest approach would be an iFi iDefender and the iPower 5v. At the very least get the iDefender to clean up the ground from the USB.

I liked the Hifime so much I then modified it to use Lifepo4 battery power and added a Crystek clock. It sounds insanely good now.

 

[AuFX]

Aha. Now we're talkin. Yep, that's my impression of the Hifime as well. Glad it's working out for you!

For power supply I have two LT3045s (ultra low noise <1uV) feeding the Hifime through the USB. I have Senn 599s, so don't need the external supply. However, I believe the USB supply is critical for sound quality since it feeds the usb receiver and the clocks (the external supply does not, it's mainly for the opamp current output). Simplest approach would be an iFi iDefender and the iPower 5v. At the very least get the iDefender to clean up the ground from the USB.

I liked the Hifime so much I then modified it to use Lifepo4 battery power and added a Crystek clock. It sounds insanely good now.

thanks for the suggestion on USB power, It seemed like that might be the case, the supply input is probably most useful when using it to drive headphones directly. this is probably why the ODAC sounds a bit more lively since it was making full use of the supply, I doubt I heard even close to this DACs full potential!

assuming you own one have you ever compared with and without the iDefender? I used the Hifime USB isolator with the ODAC and it seems to degrade sound quality a bit, gave blacker background but added a sort of hollowness. although it did fix ground loop issues when connecting it to speakers which was its purpose.

 

[wushuliu]

thanks for the suggestion on USB power, It seemed like that might be the case, the supply input is probably most useful when using it to drive headphones directly. this is probably why the ODAC sounds a bit more lively since it was making full use of the supply, I doubt I heard even close to this DACs full potential!

assuming you own one have you ever compared with and without the iDefender? I used the Hifime USB isolator with the ODAC and it seems to degrade sound quality a bit, gave blacker background but added a sort of hollowness. although it did fix ground loop issues when connecting it to speakers which was its purpose.

I have an iDefender and an iSilencer. My LT3045 PS is connected to the iDefender. My experience has been the iDefender is one of the real iFi bargain offerings. The ability to add an external supply to it is an added bonus.

What is your source? Are you using a PC?