What to offer a dealer on a used car
- Thread starter toxcrusadr
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toxcrusadr
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toxcrusadr
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Djcoolray
Addicted Member
Used car dealerships are a crap-shoot as you know nothing about the cars history. It’s better to look on Craigslist and find a first owner car with all the service records since new. But if you do go to a used car lot, go when it’s raining so you can see if the paint has been repaired. Because if the paint has been repaired there is damage underneath that has also been repaired. If you test drive a used car off the lot, have someone drive behind you in another car to see if the car tracks right going down the road so you don’t buy a car that is a bent tin can.
toxcrusadr
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Good advice. One thing about late model cars from a dealer that sells the same brand is that they are often trade-ins or leased cars from the same dealer originally. The Civic I bought a year ago was originally sold by the same dealer in 2015 and I was able to look at the service history (oil changes etc.) on their service department's computer screen. The Accord EX-L that started this thread was the same deal.
BTW we have not bought that car and didn't hear any further offers after their last lowball trade-in bid combined with an offer to finance but no real change in the price of the car, which we did not accept. Mrs. Tox took a break from shopping and didn't rush out and buy it. So we're still on the hunt.
BTW we have not bought that car and didn't hear any further offers after their last lowball trade-in bid combined with an offer to finance but no real change in the price of the car, which we did not accept. Mrs. Tox took a break from shopping and didn't rush out and buy it. So we're still on the hunt.
savatage1973
Addicted Member
Good move--taking a break. It's not like you absolutely need a new-to-you car right now. If it is still there a week or two later, they will be a little more "motivated" to let it go for what you are willing to pay. It's not like you totalled your old one and only have a rental for another week--time to let them "stew" on it for a minute. As soon as someone at the dealership gets "hungry", they'll move--prolly be ringing your phone off the hook.
50nstillhifi
Super Member
Ford Fusion, I've driven it from the company motor pool, seems OK. Not sure the wife has. Worth a look if not. I love my 95 Ranger but that was a long time ago.
Unfortunately the Toyotas have a hideous front end look these days (IMO) and I would scratch my own eyes out of she bought one. I don't care if it's the most reliable and fun car on the road, it looks awful.
Wow..... you guys are rough on the Toyotas....
Agreed the newer front ends are difficult to like... however I think Toyota is trying to match the "trending" front ends now seen on other competitive models. Though I must say when I did first see them they appeared to be the sight of a large vacuum cleaner attachment..
On the flip side (if there is one
), Toyotas return in "real world" performance mileage that is quite remarkable for a gasoline fired engine. I frequently drive a Corolla, the S model and I can "throttle up" en route to most locations, ignoring refuel stations along the way... simply because the engine performance is extraordinary. Not to mention
.. the dealership locations and service facilities are outstanding!Before you call me biased.. I use to joke about Toyotas.. often labeling them "Toy Motors".. but I am convinced they have optimized both economy and flexibility when meeting Federal fuel consumption goals.
However... and there is always a however for "Boomers"
, the vehicle lacks road durability where it comes to absorbing shock and rumble.. something prevalent in the Southeastern back roads. I suppose this is a trade-off but getting beat up by the road because your vehicle tires and suspension are wore out.. is not good!As a result.. I will be looking at something larger.. and most American made SUVs and pickups seem to better fit this ticket.
The only thing they're "matching" is the hideous designs trending on their own "upscale" Lexus models. I think they look even worse on the Toyotas, though.Wow..... you guys are rough on the Toyotas....
Agreed the newer front ends are difficult to like... however I think Toyota is trying to match the "trending" front ends now seen on other competitive models.
chop_sooie
Active Member
I don't know about the Toyotas but I DO know that Acura went to those hideous oversized bird beak front ends due to switching to a turbo on all their models so they had to redesign the front end to accommodate the intercooler. Toyota/ Lexus may be the same story.
As far as Honda automatic transmissions, the trouble with their automatics in the 6th gen / early 7th gen models have been widely documented- the story is twofold- the main issue was that the automatics were incorrectly designed so that the 2nd gear clutch pack did not get proper ATF cooling thus burning up the clutch pack. This was the MAIN reason they initially failed, and Honda came up with a redesigned transmission (that allegedly you could get for free if you knew the right thing to say at the dealership) but even those transmissions had issues mainly due to their sealed design (seriously, no ATF drain pan in those transmissions to access metal shavings, filter, solenoids, etc-- just a drain bolt, that's it. Check it out sometime!) Honda finally got their act together on the later 7th gen models from what I've heard.
Now, I used to be a big Honda guy but I always owned the 5 speed manual. My first vehicle I purchased entirely by myself was a 2001 Accord LX 5-speed. I had that car for 10 years and put 210,000 miles on it and it was still running great when I sold it. I never really had any big issues with that car, BUT those Accords are also known to have what I would call "minor" electrical issues such as the dash switch bulbs going out prematurely, power windows and ESPECIALLY the door locks failing, etc. Just cause their engines and at least their manual transmissions last a good while doesn't mean the cars overall are exceptionally "reliable." But the powertrain is what most people think of regarding reliability, so I'll give them that.
Now, compare to the car I just sold a couple weeks ago (that was still running like a top when I sold it): a 1999 Nissan Maxima with their venerable 3.0L V6 and 4 speed automatic w/ overdrive. This is what that car ticked over a few days before I sold it:
It had 320,000 miles on it when I bought it, and yes it had obviously been taken care of but still... 400k with absolutely NO issues with either the engine or the transmission! I don't think I'd even trust a Honda to do that. Unfortunately Nissan/ Renault quality has gone down, and their CVTs are notorious for being one of the most unreliable ever made (JATCO.)
ToxicCrusader, all this is to say, find another dealer. P.S. Are you in Columbia? I'm down here in NW Arkansas.
As far as Honda automatic transmissions, the trouble with their automatics in the 6th gen / early 7th gen models have been widely documented- the story is twofold- the main issue was that the automatics were incorrectly designed so that the 2nd gear clutch pack did not get proper ATF cooling thus burning up the clutch pack. This was the MAIN reason they initially failed, and Honda came up with a redesigned transmission (that allegedly you could get for free if you knew the right thing to say at the dealership) but even those transmissions had issues mainly due to their sealed design (seriously, no ATF drain pan in those transmissions to access metal shavings, filter, solenoids, etc-- just a drain bolt, that's it. Check it out sometime!) Honda finally got their act together on the later 7th gen models from what I've heard.
Now, I used to be a big Honda guy but I always owned the 5 speed manual. My first vehicle I purchased entirely by myself was a 2001 Accord LX 5-speed. I had that car for 10 years and put 210,000 miles on it and it was still running great when I sold it. I never really had any big issues with that car, BUT those Accords are also known to have what I would call "minor" electrical issues such as the dash switch bulbs going out prematurely, power windows and ESPECIALLY the door locks failing, etc. Just cause their engines and at least their manual transmissions last a good while doesn't mean the cars overall are exceptionally "reliable." But the powertrain is what most people think of regarding reliability, so I'll give them that.
Now, compare to the car I just sold a couple weeks ago (that was still running like a top when I sold it): a 1999 Nissan Maxima with their venerable 3.0L V6 and 4 speed automatic w/ overdrive. This is what that car ticked over a few days before I sold it:
It had 320,000 miles on it when I bought it, and yes it had obviously been taken care of but still... 400k with absolutely NO issues with either the engine or the transmission! I don't think I'd even trust a Honda to do that. Unfortunately Nissan/ Renault quality has gone down, and their CVTs are notorious for being one of the most unreliable ever made (JATCO.)
ToxicCrusader, all this is to say, find another dealer.
P.S. Are you in Columbia? I'm down here in NW Arkansas.
50nstillhifi
Super Member
I don't know about the Toyotas but I DO know that Acura went to those hideous oversized bird beak front ends due to switching to a turbo on all their models so they had to redesign the front end to accommodate the intercooler. Toyota/ Lexus may be the same story.
As far as Honda automatic transmissions, the trouble with their automatics in the 6th gen / early 7th gen models have been widely documented- the story is twofold- the main issue was that the automatics were incorrectly designed so that the 2nd gear clutch pack did not get proper ATF cooling thus burning up the clutch pack. This was the MAIN reason they initially failed, and Honda came up with a redesigned transmission (that allegedly you could get for free if you knew the right thing to say at the dealership) but even those transmissions had issues mainly due to their sealed design (seriously, no ATF drain pan in those transmissions to access metal shavings, filter, solenoids, etc-- just a drain bolt, that's it. Check it out sometime!) Honda finally got their act together on the later 7th gen models from what I've heard.
Now, I used to be a big Honda guy but I always owned the 5 speed manual. My first vehicle I purchased entirely by myself was a 2001 Accord LX 5-speed. I had that car for 10 years and put 210,000 miles on it and it was still running great when I sold it. I never really had any big issues with that car, BUT those Accords are also known to have what I would call "minor" electrical issues such as the dash switch bulbs going out prematurely, power windows and ESPECIALLY the door locks failing, etc. Just cause their engines and at least their manual transmissions last a good while doesn't mean the cars overall are exceptionally "reliable." But the powertrain is what most people think of regarding reliability, so I'll give them that.
Now, compare to the car I just sold a couple weeks ago (that was still running like a top when I sold it): a 1999 Nissan Maxima with their venerable 3.0L V6 and 4 speed automatic w/ overdrive. This is what that car ticked over a few days before I sold it:
It had 320,000 miles on it when I bought it, and yes it had obviously been taken care of but still... 400k with absolutely NO issues with either the engine or the transmission! I don't think I'd even trust a Honda to do that. Unfortunately Nissan/ Renault quality has gone down, and their CVTs are notorious for being one of the most unreliable ever made (JATCO.)
ToxicCrusader, all this is to say, find another dealer.
Hmmmmm...... very interesting
It is fascinating the way things have panned out for these two non American companies Honda and Toyota... given they both have dominated the professional race car circuits, both in Formula One and NASCAR!
I think they have used the technology to their consumer sales advantage but like everyone else have forsaken reliability and ease of "self servicing"
. Seems to me, most manufacturers are making it more difficult to check anything under the hood except the battery (sometimes) and windshield washer fluid....
Sounds like you think NASCAR actually fosters advances in automotive technology, and that there's any difference between any brands in NASCAR? Let me know when that 2-door Camry developed for NASCAR finds a retail outlet. I'm not an interested buyer, just laughing at the assumption that NASCAR vehicle have anything at all to do with what you can buy at the dealerships. Long time from "Race on Sunday, Sell on Monday".Hmmmmm...... very interesting
It is fascinating the way things have panned out for these two non American companies Honda and Toyota... given they both have dominated the professional race car circuits, both in Formula One and NASCAR!
toxcrusadr
Omelette au Fromage
Wow..... you guys are rough on the Toyotas....
Don't get me wrong, it doesn't mean I have complaints about the quality of their cars, I just can't stand the front end right now. I don't know much about their current offerings but they have a very solid reputation. Heck, my first car was a '78 Corolla and I still love that car.
I am afraid I'm going to need a timeline to correlate generations to model years. Otherwise I have no idea what generation of cars is being discussed.
Hmmmmm...... very interesting
It is fascinating the way things have panned out for these two non American companies Honda and Toyota...
I don't know that it has much to do with whether they are originally US-based. Hondas I've driven were built in Ohio mostly. With parts from who knows where, designed by whoever, and the same is true for Ford, GM etc. Now, I will say that back in the 70s-80s-90s it seemed the Japanese were way ahead of the US makers in building quality smaller more efficient cars that were extremely reliable. Nowadays, and I mean for at least 10 years, they seem to have as many recalls as everyone else, so it seems to me the quality is slipping in a race for profit margin, market share, shareholder value, or whatever. Used to be you saw recalls for Detroit cars but almost never for Japanese ones.
Failing transmissions would be another example. 
Shadowdog
Super Member
I think the answer is to buy older restored or build your own as you can buy metal replacement body shells for many popular older cars and a few trucks & they are easy to repair/maintain also. If you really need a 4 door , you can get a 55-57 Chev. Frames are being made also and there are even full frames available for the unibody cars to strengthen them. You can use whatever engine/trans. you want also. Disadvantages are unless you add a rollcage etc. you may not be as safe as big new vehicle. RWD based is more reliable in that you don't have the FWD driveshafts and more expensive transaxles either. Race cars have no airbags!
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50nstillhifi
Super Member
Really...
Many innovations have gone from the race circuit to the consumer vehicle.. remember air dams, spoilers, turbo chargers and the like.. unseen on basic street mobiles.. now almost standard on some. Same goes for American makes... So
???Just saying.. the suspension and engine may be different but certainly the applications are modified to enhance performance at the consumer level as well
One I can specifically speak of is the Acura Integra.. first model year specifically bred out of the Formula One race circuit by Honda engineering. As proof "google" Honda engineering, Formula One
circa 1980s.chop_sooie
Active Member
6th gen Accords were 1998-2002. 7th gen was 2003-2007 (with a mid-series body redesign in 2006.)
The 4th gen Maixmas were 1995-1999 and based on my personal experience with the last one (and how easy it was to work on -- generally speaking of course) has rapidly become one of my favorite cars ever designed. All models had the 3.0L V6 engine and you actually had a choice of a 5 speed manual or 4 speed automatic with overdrive both seem to have been quite reliable. On a side note, Honda only ever offered the Accord sedan with a V6 and a manual transmssion in 2006-2007. Otherwise you HAD to take their less than stellar automatic transmission with the V6 in a sedan any other year, before or after.
Not to mention, the 4th gen Maximas had the best sounding factory system I've ever heard in any car. It was a Bose factory system (actually manufactured by Clarion) and while I share the negative opinions of many regarding Bose, this factory system just sounded perfect. Not even the Bose system in my new 2002 Infiniti sounds as good.
I don't have any problem with advancements coming out of F1, but NASCAR—and I'm not sure you understand how NASCAR works. Did you know everyone uses the same body, same chassis, and same engine, and that they have nothing (NOTHING) to do with either the make or the mode of car that the decals make you think is racing? Google NASCAR Car of Tomorrow if you don't believe me!Just saying.. the suspension and engine may be different but certainly the applications are modified to enhance performance at the consumer level as well
One I can specifically speak of is the Acura Integra.. first model year specifically bred out of the Formula One race circuit by Honda engineering. As proof "google" Honda engineering, Formula One
50nstillhifi
Super Member
toxcrusadr
Omelette au Fromage
Well, Mrs. Tox bought the car. They called back after a week of quiet and offered a few hundred less than before. She countered with a couple hundred less than that and they took it. Final price was not too far above the curve I had worked up, after updating it with newer listings off carguru.com. And it does have that extra year of warranty as a certified used car.
I was out of town yesterday and when I got back, there's a new black beauty in the garage.
So all the questions about the reliability are now academic.
Thanks to everyone for the thoughts and advice and just being a sounding board.
BTW she ran the battery down sitting in the garage setting up her phone or some such. I charged it overnight and hopefully it's fine. I did the same thing with the Civic last year. First couple days I had it, late to a training course, car was beeping at me when I got out and I could not figure out the problem so I said eff it and locked it up and ran inside. Too many new digital screens. Turned out I had not shifted to PARK (used to a stick, don't have to shift when you get out!) and the car stayed in ACC mode. Came back at lunch and it was dead. Batteries are not very big on these cars. And the pushbutton ignition throws you off - a car with a key, you know you've turned it all the way off because that's the only way the key comes out.
I was out of town yesterday and when I got back, there's a new black beauty in the garage.
So all the questions about the reliability are now academic.
Thanks to everyone for the thoughts and advice and just being a sounding board.
BTW she ran the battery down sitting in the garage setting up her phone or some such. I charged it overnight and hopefully it's fine. I did the same thing with the Civic last year. First couple days I had it, late to a training course, car was beeping at me when I got out and I could not figure out the problem so I said eff it and locked it up and ran inside. Too many new digital screens. Turned out I had not shifted to PARK (used to a stick, don't have to shift when you get out!) and the car stayed in ACC mode. Came back at lunch and it was dead. Batteries are not very big on these cars. And the pushbutton ignition throws you off - a car with a key, you know you've turned it all the way off because that's the only way the key comes out.
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