Zilch's AK Design Collaborative - Econowave Speaker
- Thread starter Zilch
- Start date
Hello AK Ewavers, I am excited to order my parts for the Standard Econowave today (although won't start the build 'til after the Holidays). I have a few notes and questions to offer up, if you please:
I will build my own cabinets, 3/4 inch Birch plywood with Oak Baffles (3/4 inch Oak-faced) with left-over lumber. I have the lumber to build them the approximate dimensions of the PE Trapezoid, minus the Trapezoid. So the appx. dimensions will be 24 X 17 X 13 (H X W X D). I read to tune it to 30 HZ for the Standard version, is that correct? I get the following info from the calculator:
I think that tells me that I need two ports, 2" in diameter and each 6.692" in length. Does that look right? And what if my ports are 6.75" inches? (Parts Express 2" X 6" port mounted inside the cabinet). Is that close enough?
I was really comfortable with that box size until I saw tekhun's awesome Norman Lab conversions. I really like the looks of the 36" floor-stander in Econowave. See my problem? ... Steve, stay focused!
I've spent a lot of time reading this thread. Admittedly I should have probably just started from the beginning and worked my way through it, but I've bounced around as questions popped into my head. I'm trying to quiet my head down now and take the leap. That being said, I thought the Standard version was the best place to start, and then learn from the process.
One question that possibly remains; I am holding off on purchasing the Woofers 'til after Xmas as rumor has it, Santa might be dropping off a PE gift certificate in my stocking! I plan on buying the Dayton DC300-8 per the recipe, but what if, with a healthy gift from Santa, I could afford the Eminence Delta Pro 12LFA, or something in that range? Would it be worth it to go that route right out of the box, or does that introduce X-over issues. I plan on ordering the parts to the Zilch standard crossover with the woofer mounted to the baffle inside.
Thank you for any advice anyone can offer up. And these builds are really cool. Thank you for the inspiration!
I will build my own cabinets, 3/4 inch Birch plywood with Oak Baffles (3/4 inch Oak-faced) with left-over lumber. I have the lumber to build them the approximate dimensions of the PE Trapezoid, minus the Trapezoid. So the appx. dimensions will be 24 X 17 X 13 (H X W X D). I read to tune it to 30 HZ for the Standard version, is that correct? I get the following info from the calculator:
I think that tells me that I need two ports, 2" in diameter and each 6.692" in length. Does that look right? And what if my ports are 6.75" inches? (Parts Express 2" X 6" port mounted inside the cabinet). Is that close enough?
I was really comfortable with that box size until I saw tekhun's awesome Norman Lab conversions. I really like the looks of the 36" floor-stander in Econowave. See my problem? ... Steve, stay focused!
I've spent a lot of time reading this thread. Admittedly I should have probably just started from the beginning and worked my way through it, but I've bounced around as questions popped into my head. I'm trying to quiet my head down now and take the leap. That being said, I thought the Standard version was the best place to start, and then learn from the process.
One question that possibly remains; I am holding off on purchasing the Woofers 'til after Xmas as rumor has it, Santa might be dropping off a PE gift certificate in my stocking! I plan on buying the Dayton DC300-8 per the recipe, but what if, with a healthy gift from Santa, I could afford the Eminence Delta Pro 12LFA, or something in that range? Would it be worth it to go that route right out of the box, or does that introduce X-over issues. I plan on ordering the parts to the Zilch standard crossover with the woofer mounted to the baffle inside.
Thank you for any advice anyone can offer up. And these builds are really cool. Thank you for the inspiration!
The original recipe Dayton DC300-8 worked out well for me. I used a 3.8 cu ft box. Plenty of bass and economical. Later if you want to spend more. Go with a more expensive waveguide and cd driver as well as the upgraded woofer. IE the delite. Just my opinion.
Thank you djnagle, all the "Flex your PCD Muscle" recipes seem to be modeled with the PE KDT cabinet. As the one I'm proposing is bigger, I was hoping I was providing myself some flexibility, and maybe improved sound now. Do you agree, or is my box as proposed (24 x 17 x 13) still too small? I think I have the lumber to bump out the depth and width still a bit.
Thank you Katalyst, your opinion is appreciated. It is supported by reason and logic! Two qualities I admire, but lack when it comes to matters of my projects!
I understand with the higher efficiency system, I'll probably want a subwoofer. It just so happened that as I was cleaning out my basement today in preparation for hosting the family (60 some members) for the holidays I banged into one of my original projects, an M & K MX 2000 sub. I thought..."I have the sub part covered."
I understand with the higher efficiency system, I'll probably want a subwoofer. It just so happened that as I was cleaning out my basement today in preparation for hosting the family (60 some members) for the holidays I banged into one of my original projects, an M & K MX 2000 sub. I thought..."I have the sub part covered."
I look forward to keeping the cost down, only adding to my feeling of satisfaction when I'm done and listening to speakers that sound "stupid good!"
Yes it does Pio, yes it does!
I will build my own cabinets, 3/4 inch Birch plywood with Oak Baffles (3/4 inch Oak-faced) with left-over lumber. I have the lumber to build them the approximate dimensions of the PE Trapezoid, minus the Trapezoid. So the appx. dimensions will be 24 X 17 X 13 (H X W X D). I read to tune it to 30 HZ for the Standard version, is that correct? I get the following info from the calculator:
I think that tells me that I need two ports, 2" in diameter and each 6.692" in length. Does that look right? And what if my ports are 6.75" inches? (Parts Express 2" X 6" port mounted inside the cabinet). Is that close enough?
So with this cabinet size, two ports, each 2" x 6.75" sounds like it is pretty accurate?
Thank you!
The designer of DIYSG's iconic Fusion12 ( ie Jeff Bagby ) recommends a box tuning in the low 40's.
Your current ( speculative ) 30hz tuning is too low to use with a high sensitivity 12" ( & sub ).
Run it through WinISD and you'll see what I mean.
Read all of Jeff Bagby's posts within this thread for some extra back-grounding on how he dealt with 12's ( in an econowave setup > more or less ).
2.4 cu' boxes , tuned to 44hz is a good start for most Hi-Sensitivity twelves ( there are a bunch of box tuning calculators > even for smart phones ) .
I like "Box Tune Calculator"
for figuring out approximate porting sizes.
Your current ( speculative ) 30hz tuning is too low to use with a high sensitivity 12" ( & sub ).
Run it through WinISD and you'll see what I mean.
Read all of Jeff Bagby's posts within this thread for some extra back-grounding on how he dealt with 12's ( in an econowave setup > more or less ).
2.4 cu' boxes , tuned to 44hz is a good start for most Hi-Sensitivity twelves ( there are a bunch of box tuning calculators > even for smart phones ) .
I like "Box Tune Calculator"
for figuring out approximate porting sizes.
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EarlK, that's fantastic. I will dig into these posts right away. This will be a big help, and I'll report my findings.
I thought that I had read the box with the DC300 was to be tuned to 30hz. And that the 12's rated at 95db and below were lo-sensitivity. The DC300 is rated at 90.3. That sounds argumentative. I don't mean it to. Thank you for your help.
Interesting that it says 90.3 dB 2.83V/1m (DC300). I think I am used to seeing these efficiency ratings communicated like 94.6 dB 1W/1m. Looks like I have some learning there to understand the difference.
I see Box Tune Calculator is Android. Any iOS friendly apps?
On to my research!
Thank you all!
I thought that I had read the box with the DC300 was to be tuned to 30hz. And that the 12's rated at 95db and below were lo-sensitivity. The DC300 is rated at 90.3. That sounds argumentative. I don't mean it to. Thank you for your help.
Interesting that it says 90.3 dB 2.83V/1m (DC300). I think I am used to seeing these efficiency ratings communicated like 94.6 dB 1W/1m. Looks like I have some learning there to understand the difference.
I see Box Tune Calculator is Android. Any iOS friendly apps?
On to my research!
Thank you all!
I mention Jeff Bagby because you mentioned possibly using Eminence 12's ( which he also used for his early Hi-Sensitivity DIYSG designs ).
If you stick with the DC300 then a 30hz box tuning is most likely close enough ( though you really should tune it up to see how it handles your projections ).
If you stick with the DC300 then a 30hz box tuning is most likely close enough ( though you really should tune it up to see how it handles your projections ).
I mention Jeff Bagby because you mentioned possibly using Eminence 12's ( which he also used for his early Hi-Sensitivity DIYSG designs ).
If you stick with the DC300 then a 30hz box tuning is most likely close enough ( though you really should tune it up to see how it handles your projections ).
Thank you EarlK, I wondered if that’s what you were addressing. I appreciate the clarification. I plan on ordering my 12s next week. Not sure if it will be Classics or Eminence. The deeper bass numbers intrigue me but I really appreciate a dynamic, punchy bass. Can I get them both with the Classic...
In the meantime I will do some reading and try some calculations for porting of the box. Hopefully my confidence will grow with my decisions.
Thank you for your willingness to provide feedback!
Hi Steve,
Over a year ago GordonW worked up a costing of the eWave standard HERE in THIS POST!
This will give you an idea of what you'll need to budget.
PS; I did a WinISD workup of the DC300 in a 2.3cu' cabinet tuned to 30hz. It looked fine & very workable with a 3db down point below 35hz ( so that's good ).
Two, 2" i.d. ports, 6.75" long will give you an @ 29hz tuning.
A 3.0 - 3.5cu' cabinet ( if manageable ) will offer greater flexibility for future tunings or other projects.
Over a year ago GordonW worked up a costing of the eWave standard HERE in THIS POST!
This will give you an idea of what you'll need to budget.
PS; I did a WinISD workup of the DC300 in a 2.3cu' cabinet tuned to 30hz. It looked fine & very workable with a 3db down point below 35hz ( so that's good ).
Two, 2" i.d. ports, 6.75" long will give you an @ 29hz tuning.
A 3.0 - 3.5cu' cabinet ( if manageable ) will offer greater flexibility for future tunings or other projects.
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I have sent a pm. I have learned how to find the resonance frequency. Answer 42 hz. The problem is the slope of the voltage drop. It mirrors the graph of the woofer I have posted before. Starting at 200 hz .710 v. At 100 91.2% of the .710. At 60 hz 60%. At fs the voltage is 32% of the .710 v. A 25 db drop from the 200 hz level. From 200 hz till the crossover point steady voltage and db output. I am thinking of tuning the ports above the fs. Around 44 hz. These may just need a sub. Not what I expected when the build started. The open baffle graph still perplexes me. Could these woofers want a smaller box to make bass?
Please provide a link to the methodology that you followed ( since you failed to mention using a "sense" resistor ).
The woofer needs to be measured out of box ( typically hanging on strong sash-cord a couple of feet away from reflective surfaces ) to get the most accurate reading.
Did you do that?
My WinISD predictions used stock 2204H TS parameters ( with 35grams added that represented the mass ring ), all working within a 3.8cu' cabinet tuned to 35hz >> and the prediction was for lots of usable bass.
Clearly something has gone drastically wrong.
You should download REW & then use it to measure those woofers TS parameters.
- You'll need to make up a test jig ( as well as own a two channel soundcard with enough voltage drive to make the measurements > the head-phone pre-amp on the better cards usually has the necessary voltage ).
I think that REW has some help-files for how to do this.
This is one type of the card that I use;
The woofer needs to be measured out of box ( typically hanging on strong sash-cord a couple of feet away from reflective surfaces ) to get the most accurate reading.
Did you do that?
My WinISD predictions used stock 2204H TS parameters ( with 35grams added that represented the mass ring ), all working within a 3.8cu' cabinet tuned to 35hz >> and the prediction was for lots of usable bass.
Clearly something has gone drastically wrong.
You should download REW & then use it to measure those woofers TS parameters.
- You'll need to make up a test jig ( as well as own a two channel soundcard with enough voltage drive to make the measurements > the head-phone pre-amp on the better cards usually has the necessary voltage ).
I think that REW has some help-files for how to do this.
This is one type of the card that I use;
Apart from ignoring the directions to hang the woofer being measured, it looks like you measured it properly ( > tough I don't know how much error you builtin by not hanging the woofer ).
So. assuming your woofer has an Fs in the low 40's ( as it should ), I'm without an explanation as to why your system has such anemic bass response.
Sure, tune the box to 45hz and see if the woofer responds accordingly.
So. assuming your woofer has an Fs in the low 40's ( as it should ), I'm without an explanation as to why your system has such anemic bass response.
Sure, tune the box to 45hz and see if the woofer responds accordingly.
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