How to tame brightness?

fasted2015

New Member
I've had "decent" stereos all my life but finally took the plunge a month ago and bought a full Mac system and some B&W speakers. What a difference :music: The only downside is that money is going to be short for at least another year!

The components are C45 preamp, MC252 amp, and MCD301 CD player, driving a pair of B&W 803D speakers.

The sound is outstanding except for a little brightness on most CDs. I don't know if the brightness is on the CDs or from my system or setup, but it does keep the sound from being "sweet."

Here's what I've tried so far:

Speaker positioning -- Speakers started out with the speakers about 5-1/2 feet apart, 6" from the wall, with a slight toe-in. I tried positioning them straight ahead (no toe-in), 12" from the wall, and as far apart as the room allowed (7 feet). Much improved -- the sound was less "hot" and the boomy bass totally went away.

Speaker wire -- The system started out with an inexpensive 2-conductor cable with #12 oxygen-free copper and polypropylene insulation, one cable to each speaker. I then tried biwiring with IXOS XHS253-W (2-conductor #13 flat line) --- WOW. Immediately the bass got rock solid and the detail sharpened considerably throughout the spectrum. But the sound was still hot.

Interconnects -- Many forum posters on Audiokarma and other sites say that copper is copper and that the cheapest generic interconnect will equal the performance of the most expensive specialty product. Intuitively that makes perfect sense... after all, what more can a wire do except to provide a conductive path for electrons to go from one place to another? Despite my skepticism I decided to see for myself.

Two different high-end dealers loaned me some interconnects to try... MIT AVT1 (RCA type), MIT AVT Pro (balanced), and Wireworld Equinox 5 (balanced). These were put between the CD player and the preamp. By programming the preamp inputs, one cable could be assigned to input CD1 and another could be assigned to CD2 so that a direct A/B comparison could be made between two cables while the CD was playing by switching the preamp inputs with the remote control.

There was a pronounced difference between all of these cables. The AVT1 had great detail and smoothness but the soundstage was a little compressed. The AVT Pro had great detail and smoothness and a very open soundstage. The Equinox 5 had OK detail but was a little rough with a compressed soundstage.

I was prepared to spend ~$600 to buy the AVT Pro when by chance I found another dealer, a Mac dealer, while visiting friends in another city. This dealer suggested I try what they used to wire up their own in-store system, XLO/Pro 125 interconnects. The price was right -- $50 for a pair. To my surprise, this wire equalled the MIT AVT Pro in every respect on my system, and cost 1/10 as much.

So that's where I am now -- the system has great detail, great transient response, killer tight, extended bass, awesome soundstage, but is a little hot.

Anyone have a suggestion of what else I can do to sweeten up the system? I'm out of ideas.
 
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Posibly some absorbtion panels behind your front speakers. I did my whole front wall to tame brightness.
 
Agreed on the panels. Spend the money you saved with the cables on the paneling. Those tweeters definately run "brighter" but the mac gear usually calms them down.

Is everything on carpet or hard floor? That can be another major cause of brightness (get a rug - a big plush rug, if so).
 
What impedance are you running the speakers? If you are on the 8 ohm tap, try running them on the 4 ohm tap. Let us know what you find.
 
In addition to the above I would recommend cleaning up your AC power. This, along with better cables, made a big difference in my system in taming the high end.
 
Welcome to the AK McIntosh forum...However, with a testimonial like this...the following is unavoidable:D

:worthless
 
Room treatment

I have JM Lab Utopia and they are known to be well, "detail". :D

I second the room treatment comment. :thmbsp: A rug, heavy curtains, big pillows. Those are some room treatment stuff your other half may approve.

Post some pics of your room and we may be able to help where to place the treatments.
 
A pair of these helps too. :D Those 300b tubes are "sweat" Ryan can attest to that. :yes: Combained with your C45, the sound will make you melt.

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room treatments and clean ac will help more than any cable(s). That being said cables are important and do try different ones but don`t go crazy because most times less is more.
 
This idea is a last resort and not for the faint hearted. On the other hand it is inexpensive. If nothing else works, you can experiment with "padding down" the tweeter by putting resistors of various values on the positive terminal until you find one that does the trick. By doing this you are turning down the volume of the tweeter. I would call a company like Madisound for advice.
 
Room treatment? DEFINITELY. Curtains, pillows, etc.

Also, if the system sounds OK with some records and not OK with others, don't be afraid to use the tone controls - that's EXACTLY what they are there for. You paid for them - use them!

On some recording, tone controls are a must have... IMHO.

With my C220, a combination of treble taming (9 o'clock) and bass boosting (3 o'clock) can turn a thin, shrill sounding record into something that's really enjoyable.

Alberto

BTW, when I listen to Led Zeppelin, I always boost the bass. I've heard them live and John Bonham wanted you to hear his oversize drum kit - especially the bass drum in your gut :D.
 
This idea is a last resort and not for the faint hearted. On the other hand it is inexpensive. If nothing else works, you can experiment with "padding down" the tweeter by putting resistors of various values on the positive terminal until you find one that does the trick. By doing this you are turning down the volume of the tweeter. I would call a company like Madisound for advice.

If your speakers can be bi-wired, this is actually pretty easy to do, and it's not a crazy idea either. Don't the new Wilson Duette allow you to do just that (i.e. adjust response by changing the value of some externally mounted (near the binding posts) components?

Alberto
 
If your speakers can be bi-wired, this is actually pretty easy to do, and it's not a crazy idea either. Don't the new Wilson Duette allow you to do just that (i.e. adjust response by changing the value of some externally mounted (near the binding posts) components?

Alberto

What I had in mind is removing the screws to the tweeter, lifting it out, disconnecting the wire into the positive terminal, and splicing in a resistor. I changed my tweeters a couple of years ago from Accuton to Seas Millennium. Under the guidance of Madisound, I got a set of resistors and by trial and error, swapped the resistors of various values until I got the sound I wanted. It was actually very easy and cheap, but I could understand someone not wanting to try this. It seems like radical surgery, but it is not. The Accuton was very neutral and detailed, but I thought slightly lacked some sweetness and air. I got just what I wanted from the Seas.
 
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fasted2015.......You have assembled some very nice equipment and speakers. It is now time to assemble some acoutical treatment for the room. Points of first reflection to the sides of your speakers, as well as the flat wall behind your speakers are where you begin. Get the reverb and slap echo under control and the ultra bright top end will be tamed into harmony with the mid range and bottom end.

Here are a few places to research:

http://www.atsacoustics.com/
http://www.echobusters.com/index.html
http://www.acousticartpanels.com/about/index.html
http://www.gikacoustics.com/
http://www.primacoustic.com/
 
Unfortunately some cds are bright and this due to the recording engineer's
lack of artistical comprehension or how to make a detailed recording without
the bright.

Like Alberto said treble to 0900 and bass to 1500 to taste....goes along way
and audio classics impedance matching.

But you have new gear which needs burn in break in time specially the speaks. To play around replacing tweets and resistors etc before the system has had time to burn (play loud with plenty of added bass) is sort of looking in the oven and opening the oven before the angel food cake has the required bake time..perhaps even slicing off a piece to sample before it is done.

I purchased a prime restored MX 110 (by Terry Dewick) and driving new at the time Infinity Beta 50 with ceramic metal matrix drivers...there times brightness seemed more than others but now ...2 years later the new caps in my MX110 and the Beta 50's have settled in wonderfully..it did take a lot of time along along with some wall treatment. Played Wilson's recording Center Stage a few times for the tympani hits in the olympic fanfare cut.

The best addition to my system was a PS Audio Quintessence plc.
This piece alone has brought my system way up, amazing for me.
My gear though not on the same overall level perform amazes me much of the time now.

AH! 4000 tubed cd player
McIntosh MX 110
Denon POA 2200 ss 200w/ch
Infinity Beta 50s
Bluejeans ic and belden 5000up speaker wire
bi-wired
PS Audio Quintessence plc

Best wishes
 
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sounds like you are in the same place as I am with my system. and I agree with the room treatments, the links a couple of posts above are great. look at bass traps for your wall/ceiling corners behind the speakers as a good place to start and the first reflection points.

a/c power conditioning/regeneration will help the brightness a little but will add a whole lot more to your sound, too, and should be next in line once you have the money.
 
If you only bought your system one month ago, you need to let the speakers mellow before you commit to anything drastic (read: expensive). IMHO, most speakers need at least 6 months to burn in and some only really hit their pinacle after one year.

I know a lot of people who change their system in a hurry because of this brightness. i would advise giving it a chance and re-assess after 6 months or so. You might be pleasantly suprised. One morning it will just sound 'right'.

howie
 
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