Zilch's AK Design Collaborative - Econowave Speaker

[audiozaz]

Another question: can a Pyle PH612 waveguide be used with an 8" woofer, or does it need something smaller like the 18 Sound XT120?

Gary

What you want to avoid is using too small a waveguide with too large a woofer; the former will lose pattern control in its lower range while the woofer may risk getting beamy by then, making for an uneven power response. What you propose is the opposite, so should be dandy if you find a point of similar dispersion for them to meet. I managed to get my 8" Peerless to play up to ~2.5kHz to meet a smaller 6"x6" waveguide and still get good power response, but I was pushing it on both fronts IMO. It'll be much easier to get the larger Pyle WG to play lower and meet pretty much any 8" you can throw at it.

I have a pair of both D220Ti and BM-D440 FWIW. While I have not tried them extensively on the same horns/waveguides, I'd rate them as relatively equal in sound quality; good drivers for the price, but beaten by my BMS 4550 and 4540ND. I'd like to hear the B&C DE250 and Radian 475PB sometimes too.

az

 

[Gary_L]

Thanks for the info - I'm very much a noob so any info like that in terms I can understand is always appreciated.

I've just had a look at the CDs you mention, and they look like something to go for once I've managed to get something to work at a level I'm happy with, as they're a fair bit more expensive

Thanks

Gary

 

[TheaterChad]

Hello, I am in need of some help, I've been reading here for over a year, and finally getting the time to build some econowaves, with some kind help from this thread....

I'm looking to build one to several set's of Zilch's Econowave 4x variant, the link here at Audiokarma is broken, but the one at part-express is: http://techtalk.parts-express.com/showthread.php?215536-Flex-YourPCDMettle&p=1655955#post1655955

I'm mostly looking for some help as this will be my first set of Econowaves, I'm looking to order the same parts that Zilch had in his component list, the 8x8 JBL # 364700-001 wave guide, and the 8" 228H woofer # 364707-001, and not exactly sure about cab specs for volume, ( I believe the Acoustic Research 4x cabs had .6 cu ft of volume? Just a guess ) but I have plenty of 3/4 MDF / Baltic birch / Oak Plywood around to make my own cabs, slot port / or sealed. Also wondering about the cross-overs that were listed as well, if that xo would still work with the updated components.
Any help would be greatly appreciated! Thanks!

TC

 

[Jegi]

Hi.

I'm making a pair of Econowave Standards, as described in post #9306 (p. 612). I have 2,1 ft3 (59 l.) cabinets, which I'd like to use. Front baffle is 17” wide, same as “original” 1,6 ft3 trap cabs, so baffle step is not an issue (right?). Which of the following would be preferable, as per sound quality and bass extension:

A. Modifying the cabinets to match the 1,6 ft3 trap cabs, close as possible, and following the original plan. Little harder to do.

B. Venting the 2,1 ft3 cabs to match the original 30hz tune.

LinearTeam calculator gives following values:
Vb: 2,1 ft3
Fb: 30 Hz
No. of vents: 2
Vents dia: 2”
Length of each vent: 7,5”

Only change would be the vents are 1,5” shorter, as opposed to original 9” vents, is this correct? Modifying XO is not an option, as I have neither the skills, nor the equipment. So if plan B needs changes to XO then it's a no go..

Which way should I go?

 

[EarlK]

TC

The best advice I can offer is for you to simply buy the following kit ( if you are US based ) . ( click the pic )



- If you're off-continent, then you're going to have a rough ( ie; expensive ) time getting those JBL parts . The original B&C parts ( & 18sound ) are more easily obtained ( especially in the EU ) .

- The B&C 8PS21 is a better woofer than the JBL 228H ( IMO ) .
- The Denova DNA205 ( B&C de10 ) is a noticeably smoother driver than either Selenium .
- mtg90's PCD network design is at least the equal ( if not superior ) to Zilch's .
- The EOS8 ( eighteensound XT120 ) displays more uniform polars than the JBL waveguide .

vs

Zilch's legacy does live on, certainly it's present in some very talented speaker designers who've contributed their time ( to create kits, as found over at DIY Sound Group ) .

 

[Jegi]

Thanks for the tip, EarlK, I'll look into that kit. Certainly interesting. But as I'm in EU, it seems a bit expensive shipping MDF..

 

[TheaterChad]

Hi EarlK:

I'm local in the us, I even called my local retail store for the 228H woofers, they are only $103 ea, waveguides are $13 ea / + xo's.....

Yea, I was already looking at the Alpha-8 Minion speaker kit, and it looks to be a real nice way to go, But when I saw that combo ( Econowave 4x ) that Zilch had done with the 8x8 JBL waveguide and the 228H woofer, I was like, wow that is one sweet looking set-up, and I just wanted to build one set and get my feet wet with doing some down and dirty DIY, rather just buying the kit, which is the route I will probably go. Thanks!

 

[300Z]

- The B&C 8PS21 is a better woofer than the JBL 228H ( IMO ) .

What are you basing your opinion on regarding the two woofers above?

I do love my 8PS21's but I would love to see some testing on the 228H also.

 

[EarlK]

What are you basing your opinion on regarding the two woofers above?

I do love my 8PS21's but I would love to see some testing on the 228H also.

My opinion is ( mostly ) confined to the usage ( of these transducers ) within a professional setting ( I own some 8PS21's ) .

IOW, I would never own a driver with a stamped basket ( such as the 228H with it's huge over-sized magnet ) & expect it to survive being moved about ( for very long ) .

The B&C examples have proved their worth in both ( Pro & HT ) designs over the last couple of years .

FWIW ( to this discussion ) I find the quality of the compression driver ( & the waveguide/horn ) dominates the listening experience ( something like 65/35 ) over the quality of the woofer component ( all other things being equal / such as reasonably low distortion levels for the various woofs ) .

 

[dumptruck]

You can say that ANYTHING dominates the listening experience when you add "all other things being equal" to the end. Logic.

 

[Gary_L]

Earl - that is very interesting info, thanks for posting it. I've just received an XD125 to play with, and I already have a DE10. With the cabs I have, the 120 waveguide is much easier to fit then the PH612, so it's looking like a better option. I can use the PH612 in some 1970s larger speakers I have anyway, so they won't go to waste.

Do you have a link to the crossover for the above? I can use that as a start for the CD part of the build and compare it to Zilches XD120 crossover with the XD125 (I assume it's close enough but can't seem to find an XD125 ewave crossover).

The cab for my project is about 1 cu ft with an 8" driver - they are PA speakers that are quite cheap here in the UK (can be had for around $40 all in) and I think are a good option as a basic cab to get started with (need some extra bracing). If the existing woofer works with the new CD and waveguide, then all well and good, if not, I was considering the Fane Sovereign 8-225 as it's reasonably priced here in the UK (under £40).

If we can source equivalent parts over here (some P-Audio for example as well as the B&Cs), then we could be able to join the Econowave movement here in the EU a lot cheaper and in the true spirit of Econowave.

Anyone have any experience of the Fane Sovereign 8-225?

I was considering adding a 3/4 MDF baffle to the PA cab to remove the lip and also allow the woofer to sit further back and have a better alignment with the CD, plus I could round over the excess above the woofer as per some rear mounted woofers. Any reasons this won't be a good idea?

Cheers

Gary.

 

[donprice]

18Sound publishes this 8" 2-way design....might be pretty close to what you are looking for and easier to source in the EU.

http://www.eighteensound.com/staticContent/applications/kits/kit8_2_way.htm

 

[300Z]

My opinion is ( mostly ) confined to the usage ( of these transducers ) within a professional setting ( I own some 8PS21's ) .

IOW, I would never own a driver with a stamped basket ( such as the 228H with it's huge over-sized magnet ) & expect it to survive being moved about ( for very long ) .

The B&C examples have proved their worth in both ( Pro & HT ) designs over the last couple of years .

Have you used the 228H? Or at least done any side by side testing?

I own the B&C drivers that Zaph tested back in '08 and have been very happy ever since but I'm also a bit curious about the 228H.

 

[EarlK]

Have you used the 228H? Or at least done any side by side testing?
I own the B&C drivers that Zaph tested back in '08 and have been very happy ever since but I'm also a bit curious about the 228H.

- At @ 100 ea. why not simply buy a pair to satisfy your curiosity ?

- I last heard 228Hwoofers ( at an install ) here at church in TO ( within some JBL AC18's ) . There just wasn't anything special about them that would make me want to procure the parts ( & then own a stamped basket woofer ) .

- No side by side comparisons have been made .

- The following reviews demonstrate how the B&C woofer will account for itself ( in an HT environment ) .

- These days I always steer the 90% ( who can't design a network ) towards kits where they can rightfully expect some support ( & I just don't see the 228H fitting that criteria due to Evan's passing ) .

 

[Gary_L]

18Sound publishes this 8" 2-way design....might be pretty close to what you are looking for and easier to source in the EU.

http://www.eighteensound.com/staticContent/applications/kits/kit8_2_way.htm

Hi Don,

Thanks for the link. Unfortunately they used different CDs to the XD120 with that waveguide, and the woofer options used here are cheaper too. It's nice to see that they're at least doing something similar to what Zilch and co are doing - just a shame they're not quite in the Ewave league though.

The Alpha 8 link you posted looks like an option (XT120/EOS8 waveguide and 205/DE10 CD which I have), but I can't find a crossover for it yet - there must be one so people can build it.

The DNA-105 looks like a great CD too, and at a great price, but I can't find it's equivalent (if there is one?).

Cheers.

Gary

 

[dumptruck]

For the designs made specifically for the site, I believe the diysoundgroup guy is paying the designers a percentage of the kit sales, i.e. the designs are licensed and thus the crossovers aren't freely available.

 

[Gary_L]

Hi Dump,

That makes sense - funnily enough I've just been reading a post of Erichs' where he says that the designers get a payment for each speaker sold, so it's only fair they get something for the crossover too. Maybe a pay for download facility on his site would work so that the designer got something for his intellectual property so to speak, after all, it's the crossover that makes these things work and sound good or not.

Thanks

Gary

 

[donprice]

Gary,

You can always contact the designer directly and ask for a copy of the crossover schematic. Most are happy to share the details of the work and probably understand that shipping a kit half-way around the world just isn't practical.

 

[EarlK]

For the designs made specifically for the site, I believe the diysoundgroup guy is paying the designers a percentage of the kit sales, i.e. the designs are licensed and thus the crossovers aren't freely available.

Erich is his name .

Those crossover designs are very model specific ( since they were optimized by PCD & applicable for only the drivers used in the kits ) /// as such, they really wouldn't do Gary any good ( even if they were published ) .

For example, not one of them incorporates a variable L-Pad ( to help balance HF to LF ) . The variable LPad is/was a mainstay in all of JackGiffs ( & Zilch's ) network designs .

As a result ( by the omission of a variable pad ), the DIYsoundgroup network designs won't lend themselves ( easily ) to the BYOB crowd ( ie; "Bring Your Own Bass" ) which was part of JackGiff's design philosophy ( as seen in his original networks / used by a 100 people or more ) . Gary's ( existing ) unknown woofer forces him into the BYOB philosophy ( & not the PCD crowd ) .

Gary might want to try this network out for size ( I would start with the R4,C4,L3 left out, since it's meant to notch a very specific area ) ;

The above ( may ) just be close enough for giggles ( as "filtered" through what I interpret as the original intent of this thread ) .

 

[dumptruck]

I know Erich's name and how crossover design works, thank you very much . I was under the impression that Gary was interested in building the specific speaker design, just not in having the parts shipped from across the sea. Perhaps I misunderstood.