"First reflection"...what it means, why it's important, how to find it

[tomlinmgt]

I think I'm focused on threads like this, distributed bass etc. because it's either new territory or neglected territory for me. I'll be using it as a reference for sure.

Neither concept is given much attention in the audio community, yet for all those who explore and apply the concepts it immediately becomes perplexing that such is the status quo.

And there are few items in audio that get overwhelming agreement from its users that it was able to produce a profound improvement in the quality of reproduction of their system....properly implemented acoustic treatments and distributed bass qualify and probably with greater frequency than anything else. The only people I see claiming that neither does anything of benefit are those who haven't even bothered to try either or did it in such a fashion that it was not employed in accordance with guidelines that lead to a successful application of the concept.

 

[armyslowrdr]

Maybe once or twice a year I get up to River Legacy or Cedar Hill State Park to mountain bike. So I will keep that in mind. I sent photos to the realtrap guys and even the gm said my room was very tight and lacking for space. All I know is with the listening chair 58 inches from tweeters, speakers 32 in from wall, and chair 50 inches from rear wall TO ME everything sounds stellar and FOR ME spending 1 to 2 thousand would not be worth it. Perhaps I should just not have made a comment on this thread as I was not weighing in on the value of such treatments just my perceived need that I have come to the conclusion I don't want them.

.......

And if you ever find yourself in or near Arlington/Mansfield (I-20/287) then I'd be thrilled to have you come over to hear my system and a demonstration of what acoustic treatments can do. The treatments I'm using are easy to remove from the room, so in a matter of seconds (well, a few minutes) you could hear a before and after comparison.

 

[tomlinmgt]

One to two thousand dollars???? Good Lord!!! The reality is for a tenth of that amount you could buy, or better yet DIY, devices that would very likely enable you to hear an improvement because you are no doubt getting early reflections at the listening position given the dimensions you provided. But again...Im not trying to change your mind. It's your room and you do whatever you want with it...this is your journey. However, please be aware it doesn't take anywhere close to a four figure sum investment to do something effective with acoustic treatment devices. I don't know where you came up with those figures but they're so off the mark its practically absurd.

 

[davidro]

Sorry but someone living Down Under was able to implement the treatment without spending a grand or two.
Really the whole outlay cost less than three centuries even here.
Those who live in the States seemingly have plethora of cheaper and more convenient options for this thing. No excuse

 

[armyslowrdr]

Well looking at ready accoustics and realtraps, yes it would be between 1 and 2K at a start. I am no handyman whatsoever.

Michael Green product (room tunes) that can be bought off of MusicDirect is less expensive and maybe easier to install but really haven't a clue.

Only thing I know is this is the best sound I've ever heard but I have no doubt yes perhaps room tuning could benefit further. Let me include the 4 same photos I sent to realtraps. They ended up saying, yes we see, your space is very limited and suggested a mini trap at the two more accessible wall/ceiling corners. And perhaps a stand panel right in front of the Ikea Kallax. And then to hang panel anywhere around the perimeter of the room they would fit at wall/ceiling junctions. Really I get feeling they are just trying to sell what they can.

Room Tunes might be a relatively inexpensive option for me to try but then I've seen the product thoroughly trashed on forums so don't know what to believe. Here are the photos:

room1 (Medium) by armyslowrdr, on Flickr

room4 (Medium) by armyslowrdr, on Flickr

room3 (Medium) by armyslowrdr, on Flickr


room2 (Medium) by armyslowrdr, on Flickr

 

[davidro]

Nice rig. I can believe you when you said this is the best sound you've heard.

 

[tomlinmgt]

Ok...the pictures sure tell a lot. I still say you woud benefit from treatments because the majority of the furnishings in the room are hard and reflective, but the room is so heavily populated with furnishings there would be no way to implement treatments at the proper locations without placing the treatment devices in front of them. I get the feeling you don't want to do that and I can't really blame you. But in the event you decide to consider acoustic treatments at some point in the future here's a source for reasonably priced and very well constructed devices....

http://www.gikacoustics.com/

 

[armyslowrdr]

Thanks tomlinmgt; you hit it exactly spot on. Not really wanting to move anything out. Will keep website you mentioned for reference.

 

[tomlinmgt]

Of course, it goes without saying the invitation to drop by still stands. Im thirty minutes from both River Legacy and Cedar Hill SP, the latter of which I was just at a few weeks ago. If you take 35 and then 20 east to get to Cedar Hill you come within five minutes of my house just before you pass through Arlington. I'd be thrilled to have you visit. :yes:

But you'd have to listen to big speakers.

 

[armyslowrdr]

big speakers in big spaces I am sure is good

 

[tomlinmgt]

^^^

Big by your standards...but I don't guess that's too hard to meet.

 

[Rob41]

Man all this talk of Hwy 35 and seeing armyslowrdr is in Killeen takes me back a bit. I was in 2nd Armored division in the 80's. 35 was like the main road to everywhere as long as I could slow my bike down enough to make it past those Nolanville cops.

I still have some of the stereo gear from back then.

 

[tomlinmgt]

You wouldn't have any trouble slowing your bike down on 35 through Texas these days....with construction and congestion popping up at any given point be it rural or metro you do good to drive an hour without having to slow to speeds that are absurd for interstate transit.

 

[armyslowrdr]

yah Temple north to Waco has always been an absolute nightmare with the construction!

 

[GuyK]

Well looking at ready accoustics and realtraps, yes it would be between 1 and 2K at a start. I am no handyman whatsoever.

Michael Green product (room tunes) that can be bought off of MusicDirect is less expensive and maybe easier to install but really haven't a clue.

Only thing I know is this is the best sound I've ever heard but I have no doubt yes perhaps room tuning could benefit further. Let me include the 4 same photos I sent to realtraps. They ended up saying, yes we see, your space is very limited and suggested a mini trap at the two more accessible wall/ceiling corners. And perhaps a stand panel right in front of the Ikea Kallax. And then to hang panel anywhere around the perimeter of the room they would fit at wall/ceiling junctions. Really I get feeling they are just trying to sell what they can.

Room Tunes might be a relatively inexpensive option for me to try but then I've seen the product thoroughly trashed on forums so don't know what to believe. Here are the photos:

room1 (Medium) by armyslowrdr, on Flickr...

room2 (Medium) by armyslowrdr, on Flickr

If this were my room I'd likely hang an absorbtion panel on two of the doors behind the leather chair(far left and far right, last photo), and somehow place a small bass trap in each corner next to the windows with the drapes (first photo). And it doesn't have be very expensive. For about $90 US I just purchased material enough to make 5-6 panels 16"w x 6'-8"h x 6"d, and knocked two of them together in about 1-1/2 hrs. Some fabric to cover the things will be next. Quarters this tight probably don't want panels that thick, but something could be done quite easily. Even if you're not a journeyman carpenter, if you can drive a nail and cut a board you can make these. They're don't have to be built as fine as nice picture frames.

 

[armyslowrdr]

hmmm I'll keep in mind. That is what I thought would be easiest too--something on those 2 doors and something in the upper corners by windows. Thanks.

 

[armyslowrdr]

Ok 5 months later I've made a decision to go with 2 of SVS smallest sealed subs and approx 11 to 12 room tune pieces. Room tunes will just fit a lot better than any of the panels/traps I could buy. Just not interested in making anything at all. If the sound is not better well no one will know except me or who I tell..ha.

And the SVS subs can always go back within a certain amt of time. Well so could the tunes if purchased via MusicDirect but Ive been offered a substantially cheaper price direct.

Already like the sound I have but if the sound stage could be even more convincing without having to concentrate, the highs not partially masked at times by the mid bass (or maybe that is just function of the way the music is mixed) and the bass even deeper (on the tracks that have).... well why not try.

Even if I am not necessarily treating 1st reflection first. 3 corners will be treated and some wall/ceiling junction space and above doors,,,, Will see what happens. I will try and remember to report back after I have everything and time to install and evaluate.

 

[tomlinmgt]

^^^

I'll be looking forward to that report. :yes:

 

[armyslowrdr]

The subs are here and after 5 nights of listening I am ready to report. Have they made a significantly impactful difference....? Perhaps not. LPs that are produced right sound great before and still sound great. I will say there is some very deep end on maybe every 3d LP that would not be there without the sub. It is not room shaking---and I did not think it would be given the small size and they are sealed and only 300 watts.

I have one behind and left of the left speaker and the other one diagonal rear.

Only thing of real note besides the occasional real low end is that the sweet spot in this very small room remains the same--chair centered and 2/3 rearward in the room and that turns out to be an equidistant triangle position. Even more important now with the subs it seems. If I move the chair back I can localize the sound to the speakers. Sweet spot there are still distinct left and rt sounds but the soundstage is spread wide just as before.

Now not deep end bass --is it enhanced any ? I am not positive. Things may sound deeper but it could be because the spouse is gone I have things louder..haha I will need an assistant to switch the subs off and on for me to make a determination. And I am lazy. So not sure I care. The dual subs do not detract and on some LPs add for sure.

Waiting on the room tunes.

 

[armyslowrdr]

Ok tunes in and installed this evening. The sound is cleaner and the right side reflection I had seems to be tamed. I'll crank louder tomorrow. All in all I think a success.