So What is Still Able to Compete?

[Ds2000]

I wasn't insulted, as I agree that the older gear needs to be updated. The Onkyo and Stax amps here have had compulsive services done to them to modernize the power supplies and driver stages via total small cap and resistor replacement, all of the relays replaced, every board re-soldered and all of the larger transistors de-soldered, removed, then replaced with new pads and grease for the Onk. It took 15 hours, and was recommended by Onkyo in a service bulletin. The Stax had even deeper work done, many transistors, all of the caps, many resistors, over 75 hours. I feel it takes this kind of attention to make a statement saying that they can compete with a HQ new amp, fresh out of the box.
I'd love to drag them to a store and have a fun afternoon, but the stores who can dedicate time are getting few these days. But there is this one place downtown...

 

[enginedr]

A audiophile who knows how to set up a system to play his room properly can compete . I have not heard a room at a audio show
that sounded better than mine . Although I would like too . And of course this all objective . I enjoy tweaking my system always a work in progress .

 

[hnash53]

Really?
Regards,
Jim

Well, no... not really. This is just my way of protesting such threads.

"My dick is bigger and better than your dick." Quite juvenile.

BUT... I am not saying this about the OP or anyone in particular who has contributed to this thread.

There will ALWAYS be some unit, some manufacturer, some model that will compete better than anything anyone has.

My Sanyo sounds better to me than anything else I've listened to... but I've not listened to that many units at all. But I have put it up against some pretty big names... Sansui, Sony, Kenwood. That's why it's still in my main system.

Let's move forward from here.
To all those out there still listening to their Yorx, Soundesign,... Yes, and their Sanyo's... Our units still compete even to this day.
Regardless of what one has equipment-wise, let's all hold our heads high, and LISTEN ON.

 

[ehoove]

^^^^^
noted for future reference, No harm No foul
Regards,
Jim

 

[hnash53]

^^^^^
noted for future reference, No harm No foul
Regards,
Jim

It's all about the Music, but I sure like the way my gear makes it come alive!

Agree totally!

'Nuff said ! ! !

 

[just dave]

Well, no... not really. This is just my way of protesting such threads.

"My dick is bigger and better than your dick." Quite juvenile.

BUT... I am not saying this about the OP or anyone in particular who has contributed to this thread.

There will ALWAYS be some unit, some manufacturer, some model that will compete better than anything anyone has.

My Sanyo sounds better to me than anything else I've listened to... but I've not listened to that many units at all. But I have put it up against some pretty big names... Sansui, Sony, Kenwood. That's why it's still in my main system.

Let's move forward from here.
To all those out there still listening to their Yorx, Soundesign,... Yes, and their Sanyo's... Our units still compete even to this day.
Regardless of what one has equipment-wise, let's all hold our heads high, and .

If you love your Sanyo that's cool with me.I've got one too,a Plus 130 receiver.

 

[jstang]

I would bring my system to any audio show.... Knowing it is fully rebuilt, recapped and upgraded in some cases.... Fully up to speed....


System 1

Ohm Fs, Model 10b, Model 7t and Model 500....

Problem is that the amp needs 240v to really kick butt....

System 2

Ohm WALSH 4s , Model 10b , Model 7c and a Model 8b or 15 amp....

I have friends that have new multi 10k$ systems that scratch their head in wonder when they hear my rigs....


Bring them only if they paid me to... But it would be bad for new sales.....


Of course my audio sources are upgraded too.....

 

[Blue Shadow]

Volume levels requested would doom those Ohm Fs. Had em in a house system at one time. Huge room and they just didn't want to go that loud. Loved the sound. But then volume is what newer speakers can do so much better than older ones.

 

[jstang]

With a good amp they are more than capable of filling an average room to levels you can't hear the person next to you..... Tons of damping and watts are needed....

The problem is that people put a lower wattage , lower damping amp on them... The amp loses servo control over the heavy cones and you hear a blurring of the sound at higher levels and chalk it up as that is as they can not be played loud as they really can...

The vintage Marantz 500 can produce a clean 500 wpc into 4 ohms....and is rated at greater than 400 for damping.... It actual clips at 600 wpc into 4 ohms. When you run it on 240v ( not 120 ) , it has complete control over the Ohm Fs like no other amp I've heard.

But I agree.... They are not hi spdb speakers... They can easily fill a typical hotel listening room used at some shows. They are fine for any typical home listening room you may have...with an appropriate amp. And purity of sound is tops...

What amp did you use?

I would take to a show and watch jaws drop....

 

[MannyE]

99.9% of my gear is vintage Dave and I enjoy it just as much as anyone here. But.........I'm not naive enough to think that my 40 year old Mac C33 will hang with a C52 or my MC2500's from the same time period will hang with a pair of MC1201's. A question was asked, I answered it in post 3 then the perimeters got changed so I re-answered it. The old gear can't hang with the modern gear unless it's rebuilt with modern components and therefore it's not original vintage anymore.

I completely disagree (respectfully) with this. That's like saying a classic car is no longer a classic car because the oil and filters have been changed. While there is room for debate about this cap or that cap sounding better or different, you can't expect parts that wear out not to be replaced. Maybe if it's a static museum piece you want to make sure all the parts are original, but if you're going to use it, then it has to be kept up. I don't see that as something that disqualifies gear.

 

[motorstereo]

Agreed to a certain point^^^^^^^^^^^There's no doubt about it with some basic maintenance the older gear sounds great and I still consider it vintage with that basic maintenance. But your question (unless I read it wrong) is "what is still able to compete". In that case a handful of caps in a 50 year old unit isn't going to cut it against today's best being played on today's best speakers. More than likely you could get the old gear to that level but the only thing "vintage" left would be the faceplate. Where exactly would you like to draw that line in the sand? Perhaps at transistors or would it be a better transformer?

I would think the same thing applies to vintage autos.........oil changes and basic maintenance are fine but swapping a modern 700 hp engine into that 57 Chevy means it's not a classic 57 Chevy anymore by my definition.

 

[jstang]

I have yet to double the wattage of any vintage amp.... Or any amp for that matter.... I lwould like to figure out how to do that without gutting and replacing everything... That would require a change in the laws of physics....

My 10b, 8b and 7c are 100% stock except tubes and an couple electrolytics in the 10b.... The 15 is just recapped.

The 500 has had many parts replaced.... But no changes in the circuit design or power level. None... As a matter, I never change the circuit design. I also have a bone stock 500.

Replacing 40+ year old audio grade parts with new audio grade parts is not a radical upgrade... It's the caps that hey would use if it was being built today...

People need to separate power level from tonal quality.

If you want to compare high wattage or lower wattage... Vintage to new.... I have no problem bringing my vintage systems to the "listening arena" and watching the "new is better" crowd walk away scratching their heads.....

Well actual I will never bother to drag my stuff to an "audio meet".... I have been asked to do that by some friends, it's just not worth the effort right now, may be some day. I know people that do that, that is cool... But too much work for me. Just come over, sit down, have a beer and a listen.....on me.

 

[Tinkerbelle]

As technology constantly advances it is hardly a fair comparison. Computers, aircraft, weapons, cars, TVs, chip technology, electronics, yada yada and on have all advanced dramatically, and so too in the audio world. Any items from yesteryear that could compete would still be in production - the fact that most of those products are not in production is because of no longer being profitable or in demand - i.e. not competitive. There are some exceptions, as below.

The items that come to mind that might compete are the items that were cutting edge back then and are more fringe or resurgence in today's production, so they have had little or no technological investment or advancement. These tend to be more parts than complete equipment - For example, tubes, output transformers, turntables, vinyl, tapes. They might stand a chance.
- Modern production tubes struggle to match the NOS of Mullard, Telefunken, Amperex and the like. Production runs were much higher back then, so the relative price of tubes today is higher.
Along with tubes, tube testers could compete in price and availability - what is available today is expensive, though advanced in features.
- Tube amp output transformers for the most part have not changed much in design.
- Tube amps in general might compete on performance but not on features. Modern designs can offer creature comforts such as remote control, self bias for different tube types, LED indicators, etc. However, amplifier kits might be able to compete. They were more plentiful back then. That said, McIntosh still produces some tube amps that hail from that era, re-issued design. Yes, older tube amps would need to be updated to make sure components such as capacitors, resistors etc. are still in spec but as long as they were not modified to exceed original spec that should be allowed for comparison.
- Turntables haven't moved on much until you get to very high $ and then you could make a case of competing at a relative price point; e.g. what modern turntable competes with what you would pay for a Garrard 301, Thorens TD-124, Pioneer 1200, etc. for the price point relative to (then) income that they were produced?
- Vinyl today is small potatoes to what it was back then, and it hasn't significantly progressed technologically.
- Speakers - some are re-issued and so obviously compete in some small way, e.g. Altec A7, Klipsch Heritage 70th anniversary series, and such. But these are modern takes on older designs, so are really modern speakers that just look like the older ones..

Otherwise, unless the past manufacturers were allowed to come to the exhibit with refreshed, modernized versions of their original designs - just like the VW Bug, Mini Cooper, Ford Mustang, Chevy Corvette, etc. - or like those modern day takes on past speaker designs - it would be pretty one-sided and unfair comparison IMO.

 

[onemug]

I have no problem bringing my vintage systems to the "listening arena" and watching the "new is better" crowd walk away scratching their heads

I wouldn't be walking away, I'd be asking if I could stay and listen longer.

 

[SuperLead100]

Since the interpretation of sound and aesthetics is purely subjective, then I'd have to say one could bring whatever they wanted to compete with modern technology...and it would compete; to what level is again, purely subjective.

To answer the original question, I'd bring a Yamaha CA-1010/2010 to compete with any new integrated priced up to about 8k. I think I could walk away in the end with my head held high.

 

[Tony C.]

I'm using a recapped Accuphase E-303x integrated amp with a set of WBT binding posts and it sounds very, very good. The T-103 tuner is from the same era. The rest of the system isn't vintage, though my Electrocompaniet EMC-1UP CD player is a first generation, so it's getting on in years. Speakers are relatively recent Harbeth P3ESR.

 

[The Fez]

Its more than parts. Just putting in "new caps" aint going to make much difference to a vintage piece if the design itself is crap. It will still be crap. Same with new components and current hifi. Don't matter if it was built yesterday - if the circuit is not designed well it will not be good. Have a look at the new BHK amps from PS Audio. King in his videos relates back to designs dating to the early seventies (Yamaha VFET B-2) as influence for his "modern" designed (and by all accounts exceptional) amplifiers.

The only way to judge is to do it yourself.

 

[Ken Boyd]

I have to chime in here, when it comes to audio were not talking about cutting edge PC technology. Audio amp topology hasn't really advanced that much to a point that the best of yesterday would have a pathetic performance compared to today. Wasn't it in the Berlin audio show that one of the standout speakers was an old Western Electric 1928 field coil theater horn? And yes technology has advance greatly but when it comes to audio the basics for hi quality, audio performance have long ago been conquered. Probably in a large venue your going to see the advances of a top dollar system, but in an average living room I would wonder if one would stand out of another. Top Asian audiophiles are all over certain vintage items for a reason. Many have the money for new systems but prefer the tone of some of the older gear. Technology has advance greatly but that doesn't mean they found something in the sound spectrum that they hadn't known about in the 1970's. In the 1960's we put a man on the moon, and in 2017 we don't have one rocket that get a man even to the space station, advances in technology don't always get you somewhere.

 

[The Fez]

Indeed - One of the standouts, that blew so many people away at a recent International HiFi Show in Melbourne was a Revox R2R tape player. Exceptional sound quality that by all accounts bested the most expensive sources and TT's.. Master tapes notwithstanding....But still "old skool" ..

 

[MannyE]

Indeed - One of the standouts, that blew so many people away at a recent International HiFi Show in Melbourne was a Revox R2R tape player. Exceptional sound quality that by all accounts bested the most expensive sources and TT's.. Master tapes notwithstanding....But still "old skool" ..

That and what Ken Boyd said are the spirit of this exercise.

So far the only things I can find that "in general" are difficult to beat are speakers. Again, generally I feel modern speakers have the edge on looks, which is opposite most other components, and sound-for-size. A good modern bookshelf will most likely best quite a few mid-sized vintage floor standers...or not? I think so, but I would love to be proven wrong...