Emotiva Pricing Announcements

musichal

poet emeritus
Back in February Emotiva announced a new increase in pricing, citing manufacturing cost increases as the reason. OK, sounds reasonable. Now they've just announced that they will no longer be offering sale prices, explaining that buyers who buy a product only to see it go on sale a month later feel cheated. I know I have watched for the Sales they had two or three times a year, waiting to get the best price. They claim they operate on lower margins than other audio companies, and that to continue offering sale prices they'd have to raise list prices for non-sale periods.

About a year ago, I bought an XSP-1 preamp (touted as Generation II, but no longer listed that way) on sale for $800. It listed new for $900, IIRC (actually 899, but I rounded all these price up one buck) Now it is $1200, since the Feb increase.

I'd have an easier time believing their justifications had they lowered prices, even just a little. That is what I would have expected to've seen, given their spin on this scenario. Maybe costs really have risen that much - how would I know?

I still think Emotiva products represent good value - most notably the BASX Line - but the upper line now has a little more competition, in my mind. Any opinions?
 
When a good deal is there, it is best to take advantage of it in a timely manner. Because they won't be there forever. This has happened several times over the last few years, like the Comet Supply Denon cartridges, the increase in price of the JICO SAS styli, the closing of ACI speakers due to retirement, the death of Brian Cheney at VMPS, and the Applied Fidelity bearing for Technics tables, and the retirement of the guy running Phoenix Engineering that built those nifty speed controllers.

If you recognize a good deal, buy it. Don't think it will always be there for you. Because one day it will go away.

Regards
Mister Pig
 
Back in February Emotiva announced a new increase in pricing, citing manufacturing cost increases as the reason. OK, sounds reasonable. Now they've just announced that they will no longer be offering sale prices, explaining that buyers who buy a product only to see it go on sale a month later feel cheated. I know I have watched for the Sales they had two or three times a year, waiting to get the best price. They claim they operate on lower margins than other audio companies, and that to continue offering sale prices they'd have to raise list prices for non-sale periods.

About a year ago, I bought an XSP-1 preamp (touted as Generation II, but no longer listed that way) on sale for $800. It listed new for $900, IIRC (actually 899, but I rounded all these price up one buck) Now it is $1200, since the Feb increase.

I'd have an easier time believing their justifications had they lowered prices, even just a little. That is what I would have expected to've seen, given their spin on this scenario. Maybe costs really have risen that much - how would I know?

I still think Emotiva products represent good value - most notably the BASX Line - but the upper line now has a little more competition, in my mind. Any opinions?
IMO I call BS. If production costs have gone up, and so prices to customers must increase, OK, fine, raise prices. But the idea that any business would not have sales because customers who missed buying a product at a lower price would feel "cheated" strikes me as pure, unfiltered, USDA Bull Fritters. If Emotiva is so concerned about the customers who "feel cheated", then why doesn't Emotiva just refund the difference to those customers who complain, or offer some other rebate to them? Perhaps a small fraction of customers might feel that way, but then there's always a certain fraction of customers who would feel slighted for any reason. In other words; you'll never make everyone happy. Secondly, you'll certainly tick-off far more customers by 1. Stopping sales events altogether, and 2. Coming up with an excuse the seems to reek like a pile of road apples.
Here's a far more plausible reason why they'll have no more sales; Emotiva believes the customers can, and will pay higher prices, and so increasing company profits.

But then, maybe Emotiva has come up with a brilliant new business model; thus we may expect to see all smartly run businesses never hold another sale. IMO, of course.
 
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I suspect it's not because some end use customers might feel cheated. But, since Emotiva both sells direct and through dealers, having sales in the direct channel becomes competition to the dealers. Dealers object mightily to that.
 
I was a young manager at Sears in 1988 when we went with Every Single Day Pricing (ESDP) where we shut down for a half day, did inventory and changed the price of every single item in the store. Supposedly lower. We had a set of Washer and Dryers that never went on sale (rare at Sears) before that that was priced at $399/299 before that. After the ESDP prices went into effect they new price was $409/309. We no longer had $999 ranges that we never sold at that price but put on sale for $699........so now we had an ESDP of $799. It was all BS and was changed just a few months later.

I read the statement by the President of the company and did not believe a word of it.
 
I have to agree as well. The "we will take more of your money so that we can give you a better deal" business model seems to be a popular sales pitch lately. I guess they think we are too stupid to see what the real motive might be. I have several Emotive products and believe I got what I needed, decent equipment at budget prices. At their newer price levels there are other choices. That may be the only "upside " for someone with limited funds for this hobby, at least that would be true for me.
 
Another thought on the statement; The guy states he was worrying about his customer's feelings being hurt about paying more than somebody else.........Ummmmm so now everybody has to pay more because some people are cant or wait for a sale? The ultimate participation trophy policy........Everybody loses because we wont let anyone win.
 
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Emotiva is no longer the upstart internet based business selling bargain priced goods manufactured in China. They now have US based production for much of their product line and a US dealer network. Things are changing and along with it the pricing model, for better or worse. Like most manufacturers, I suspect you'll still be able to get a bargain through your B&M dealer, just not the periodic sales on teh intarwebz.
 
Another thought on the statement; The guy states he was worrying about his customer's feelings being burt about paying more than somebody else.........Ummmmm so now everybody has to pay more because some people are cant or wait for a sale? The ultimate participation trophy policy........Everybody loses because we wont let anyone win.


"burt"...is that short for butt hurt?
 
A Hifi system is a luxury and there fore prices can change when management thinks they can get away with it. Once management has set a standard then there are others in the company whose job it is to build the product cheaper increasing profits. There are also others trying to design the better mouse trap and if the bean counters and management accepts the design the better mouse trap for less will be built. The question is the mouse trap better and who is going to prove it. Plus will the new mouse trap be functioning 5 years from now or 10 years and can it be maintained? If not is the mouse trap really the most economical choice?

I would much prefer to invest my money in a product with a proven track record for many years, that has a great dealer base and service base when the unforeseen issue might arise. It maybe a bitter pill to swallow at first, but when a product is still working beyond its minimum standards after 45 years you learn to appreciate the better mouse trap.

Can you imagine owning a pair of klipschorns, Harkness, Concert Grands, Capistranos, Patricians, Paragons, that are 50 years old and in some cases worth 10 times their retail value? How about a Mcintosh 275 or C-22 worth 10 to 20 times the retail value. A pair of Marantz model worth many times their retail price. Will you be able to say the same thing about your Emotiva? Not unless they change their ways and design a product to last, which you won't be able to buy cheaply either. So save your coin and invest wisely for the long term. It will bring you the most satisfaction.

Would you rather be driving a Split window Corvette or a Honda `2000. I don't like Vettes and can't fit in the Honda, but I would rather have the vette. If you had a choice between A Marantz Model7 and a Pair of Model 9s or your Emotiva, which would you have?
 
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I've been an Emotiva fan for some time. However, their reliability doesn't warrant the higher price tags. They shouldn't try to follow other manufacturer's pricing if they can't follow their reliability.
 
Thing is, they took a price increase. Then a month later went from Hi-Lo to EDLP without readjusting their pricing downward which is customary when communicating a shift in price strategy to consumers. The way they did this comes off as insulting the intelligence of their customer base." Hey we raised pricing and it's good for you because now you don't have to wait for sales since we aren't doing those anymore."

Many retailers have traveled this road and found ruin at the end of it. A recent example would be JC Penny but many more abound. Some retailers can pull it off but most cannot. Time will tell but the way Emotiva handled the critical customer communication piece leaves me with doubts. I've already seen several threads on various forums about this and the response has not been positive.
 
I agree, I think it was a bad move, or at least handled poorly. I'll admit, the sales are what drew me in. I had a buddy at work who was hyping up Paradigm and Emotiva to me, so I waited for the next Emotiva sale. I bought a power amp and preamp (I think the amp was originally $399 on sale for $289 and the preamp was $489 on sale for $399...so I saved $200!!! Woohoo!). Shortly after, I bought a DAC (again, on sale). I kept my eye out on them for another sale, and when Sherbourn was shut down, bought a flex amp. I never had any issues with any of the pieces (other than one flex amp, which was DOA and promptly replaced) or with their service.

With that said, all of my Emotiva gear is slowly being replaced with other stuff...Emotiva stuff is good, and a good value WHEN PURCHASED AT THE SALE PRICES, but I feel you can do "better" at the new higher prices...especially with used stuff, but maybe even with new stuff from other manufacturers.

With that said I am still using an Emotiva amp (UPA-200) and DAC (XDA-2) in my "main" system and they are performing just fine. I'm looking to replace the amp with something higher-end and a little more powerful, but it's serving me well for now. I like that the DAC has a lot of features...I'm actually using it as both a DAC and digital preamp (with remote).
 
When Emotiva was a young company, their business sense was much better, their CS was superb. They have been saying for several years they were going to introduce tube components, and they even brought Bob Carver on board to assist them in production. A few months later we found out Bob was no longer working with Emotiva. Apparently something happened to piss Bob off, and you never hear anything about tubes. Emotiva also had a program where the customer would pay annual membership fees to get a discount. After the first year the program was cancelled and nothing more was ever mentioned. The only new product I ever purchased was their phono preamp. It is my opinion that it's just a matter of time before Emotiva becomes a faded memory. I could be wrong and I hope I am, but this is how I see it.
 
This is the part of the announcement that stick out to me:

"What we realized is that in order to offer discounted promotions at two or more times a year, we’d have to raise our retail list prices to allow for promotional discounts, and that didn’t sit well with me. We’d be artificially raising our prices in order to put products on sale during promotional periods."

This statement tells me that their retail prices have been artificially inflated in order to accommodate periodic sales promotions. Ok, I can understand that. But...with the removal of sales promotions, consumers are left with retail prices that remain artificially inflated. I appreciate their concern for the consumer, but by admittedly keeping their retail prices artificially inflated all the time, I don't see this decision as being made in the best interest of the consumer.
 
Sales are created to stimulate a flat business climate. If any of you were in the audio business, you would know that there are historical "bad" sales times through out the calendar year. One example would be a period after Christmas. Some will buy after Christmas because they didn't get what they wanted and then they treated themselves. But after that period, its ghost town. Another time is summer. People are out doing things outside. Pretty hard to sell stuff during this time.

The Emotiva bashing is pointless. They are trying to survive the audio environment, just like everyone else. A sales today means twiddling the thumbs later in many cases.

You either support the companies that you like, or they are going to go away. They have bills to pay too.

'ner
 
Sales are created to stimulate a flat business climate. If any of you were in the audio business, you would know that there are historical "bad" sales times through out the calendar year. One example would be a period after Christmas. Some will buy after Christmas because they didn't get what they wanted and then they treated themselves. But after that period, its ghost town. Another time is summer. People are out doing things outside. Pretty hard to sell stuff during this time.

The Emotiva bashing is pointless. They are trying to survive the audio environment, just like everyone else. A sales today means twiddling the thumbs later in many cases.

You either support the companies that you like, or they are going to go away. They have bills to pay too.

'ner


Ummm that is what discounts are for.......to spur sales in the slow times. Pointing out that some of us dont believe why they changed pricing policy is not bashing BTW. If they would have stopped discounts AND kept prices at the same level I think more would have believed them.......
 
When a good deal is there, it is best to take advantage of it in a timely manner. Because they won't be there forever.

If you recognize a good deal, buy it. Don't think it will always be there for you. Because one day it will go away.

Regards
Mister Pig

Good point, which was my thinking as well when I bought.

I suspect it's not because some end use customers might feel cheated. But, since Emotiva both sells direct and through dealers, having sales in the direct channel becomes competition to the dealers. Dealers object mightily to that.

Another good point; could certainly be a factor.

I have to agree as well. The "we will take more of your money so that we can give you a better deal" business model seems to be a popular sales pitch lately... I have several Emotiva products and believe I got what I needed, decent equipment at budget prices. At their newer price levels there are other choices.

Yes, they've increased their competition.

Emotiva is no longer the upstart internet based business selling bargain priced goods manufactured in China. They now have US based production for much of their product line and a US dealer network. Things are changing and along with it the pricing model, for better or worse.

Makes me wonder how much their costs really have increased.

I would much prefer to invest my money in a product with a proven track record for many years, that has a great dealer base and service base when the unforeseen issue might arise. It maybe a bitter pill to swallow at first, but when a product is still working beyond its minimum standards after 45 years you learn to appreciate the better mouse trap.

Can you imagine owning a pair of klipschorns, Harkness, Concert Grands, Capistranos, Patricians, Paragons, that are 50 years old and in some cases worth 10 times their retail value?

Sometimes people can't afford to spend more; sometimes, as with me, we balk at spending enough on a preamp to purchase a decent used car. My Khorns turned 41 this year, so I don't have to imagine that.

I've been an Emotiva fan for some time. However, their reliability doesn't warrant the higher price tags. They shouldn't try to follow other manufacturer's pricing if they can't follow their reliability.

I think perceived reliability comes with a higher price tag than even the increased Emotiva scale. McIntosh, Bryston, and such are not their direct competition. We're talking new here. I was slightly tempted by some excellent used choices, but the combination of no remote and rolling the dice on possible repair needs nixed that for me.

Thing is, they took a price increase. Then a month later went from Hi-Lo to EDLP without readjusting their pricing downward which is customary when communicating a shift in price strategy to consumers. The way they did this comes off as insulting the intelligence of their customer base."

Yes, that was my main complaint, too.

I agree, I think it was a bad move, or at least handled poorly. I'll admit, the sales are what drew me in....

With that said, all of my Emotiva gear is slowly being replaced with other stuff...Emotiva stuff is good, and a good value WHEN PURCHASED AT THE SALE PRICES, but I feel you can do "better" at the new higher prices...especially with used stuff, but maybe even with new stuff from other manufacturers.

I think Emotiva remains in competition, but have increased that competition. When I bought the XSP-1, every other contender was more expensive by a couple hundred bucks or more.

This is the part of the announcement that stick out to me:

"What we realized is that in order to offer discounted promotions at two or more times a year, we’d have to raise our retail list prices to allow for promotional discounts, and that didn’t sit well with me. We’d be artificially raising our prices in order to put products on sale during promotional periods."

This statement tells me that their retail prices have been artificially inflated in order to accommodate periodic sales promotions. Ok, I can understand that. But...with the removal of sales promotions, consumers are left with retail prices that remain artificially inflated. I appreciate their concern for the consumer, but by admittedly keeping their retail prices artificially inflated all the time, I don't see this decision as being made in the best interest of the consumer.

That is how it comes off, but could possibly be a false assumption.

The Emotiva bashing is pointless. They are trying to survive the audio environment, just like everyone else. A sales today means twiddling the thumbs later in many cases.

You either support the companies that you like, or they are going to go away. They have bills to pay too.

'ner

I'm glad you made this point.

However, I don't see this as bashing, but a discussion based on Emotiva's own well-publicized announcements which fairly invite comment. I like my Emotiva equipment. I am not so quick to call BS as some, but do find the two announcements - made a few weeks apart - striking.

In the end, the market will determine whether they can hold the line. If sales drop, then seasonal Sale pricing may well return, and likely without a lot of fanfare. As Hawkeye wrote above, I think this could have been better handled.

Oh, and overall an excellent and cogent discussion, guys.
 
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I think perceived reliability comes with a higher price tag than even the increased Emotiva scale. McIntosh, Bryston, and such are not their direct competition. We're talking new here. I was slightly tempted by some excellent used choices, but the combination of no remote and rolling the dice on possible repair needs nixed that for me.

FWIW, Emotiva's warranties are transferrable. That takes a fair amount of risk out of buying a lightly used component.
 
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