Setting anti-skate twice as high as it "should" be?

DesertTwang

Active Member
I recently installed an AT 440MLa cartridge in my Pioneer PL-540 turntable. It replaced the stock AT 3600 cartridge, which I had fitted with an aftermarket stylus (DE211 from turntableneedles.com). After about a year, that stylus was slanted to the right (when viewing the cartridge head-on), i.e. toward the outer radius of the record. I ascribed that slant to a lack in antiskating force. I used to have it at about 75% of the VTF.

I didn't want to make the same mistake with the new cartridge, so I tried adjusting anti-skate by ear, but there is absolutely no difference to be heard, even when it's dialed all the way back to 0, or added all the way (4).

Next, I tried to set the anti-skate force with the visual method, i.e. by watching the cantilever veer inward or outward as it lowers into the groove. The problem is that it doesn't under most settings. If anything, the cantilever wants to slant ever so slightly outward even at higher settings than recommended by Pioneer.

The only noticeable difference in slant is when I set the ASF to either 0 or all the way to 4. According to this method, the correct setting is at "3," which is twice than the recommended value (VTF = 1.4).

I verified the AS is working by zeroing the arm and floating it. Turning the AS dial in that situation results in a vigorous swing toward the outside, so it definitely isn't broken.

Could it be that due to its age, the AS mechanism has weakened? The problem is that I have no clue how the mechanism actually works. If it's a spring of some kind, I could see how it gets weaker over time.

In other words, how concerned should I be about an AS setting this high?
 
Some turntables do not even have anti-skate. There are grooveless test records thay you can use to set your adjustment, though I have never used one.
 
Some turntables do not even have anti-skate. There are grooveless test records thay you can use to set your adjustment, though I have never used one.
Thank you! I have heard about those test records, but based on many threads here and elsewhere, I am led to believe that they only take one so far in determining the correct setting, as the forces vary drastically between the stylus being in a groove as opposed to being tip-on on a smooth surface. That makes intuitive sense to me. I also am aware of various test records being available, but I'm under the impression that unless one has an oscilloscope, they are of limited use. Some people recommend setting AS by ear, by listening to distortion in the left vs. the right channel, but I don't hear any distortion, regardless of what settings I use.
 
I'm not sure how manufacturers arrive at any form of consistency or calibration of their anti skate devices. It's potentially just voodoo. And they certainly could change with age, or at least the spring types could.
 
Update: I just tried the "visual cueing" method, except I watched the cantilever as I lower the tonearm somewhere halfway through the record. Before, I had always watched for deflection at the lead-in groove. Now, an AS setting of "3" results in slight inward deflection (= AS too high), while "1" and "1.5" result in outward deflection (= AS too low). Just above "2" seems to be the sweet spot, which isn't all too far from the VTF setting of 1.4.
 
I recently installed an AT 440MLa cartridge in my Pioneer PL-540 turntable. It replaced the stock AT 3600 cartridge, which I had fitted with an aftermarket stylus (DE211 from turntableneedles.com). After about a year, that stylus was slanted to the right (when viewing the cartridge head-on), i.e. toward the outer radius of the record. I ascribed that slant to a lack in antiskating force. I used to have it at about 75% of the VTF.

I didn't want to make the same mistake with the new cartridge, so I tried adjusting anti-skate by ear, but there is absolutely no difference to be heard, even when it's dialed all the way back to 0, or added all the way (4).

Next, I tried to set the anti-skate force with the visual method, i.e. by watching the cantilever veer inward or outward as it lowers into the groove. The problem is that it doesn't under most settings. If anything, the cantilever wants to slant ever so slightly outward even at higher settings than recommended by Pioneer.

The only noticeable difference in slant is when I set the ASF to either 0 or all the way to 4. According to this method, the correct setting is at "3," which is twice than the recommended value (VTF = 1.4).

I verified the AS is working by zeroing the arm and floating it. Turning the AS dial in that situation results in a vigorous swing toward the outside, so it definitely isn't broken.

Could it be that due to its age, the AS mechanism has weakened? The problem is that I have no clue how the mechanism actually works. If it's a spring of some kind, I could see how it gets weaker over time.

In other words, how concerned should I be about an AS setting this high?
i would say the slanted cantilever, is from a cart angle that could be adjusted more to the angle of the pull, and checked with a cart alignment tool.
 
I'm not sure how manufacturers arrive at any form of consistency or calibration of their anti skate devices. It's potentially just voodoo. (...)

That may perhaps apply to some manufacturers. Others have invested a bit of research and even built measurement devices like for example Dual's Skate-o-meter (see manual on Lulabu's archive: http://dual.pytalhost.eu/skateometer/).

Dual also provides a couple of interesting graphs in a few of their brochures, like for example this one from the brochure for the 721: http://dual.pytalhost.eu/721p/seite(5).jpg. What you can see there are several graphs that show the skating force (or respectively the necessary antiskating force) over tracking force for several tip shapes - with three extra vertical axes on the left, showing the calibrations of the conical, the elliptical and the CD4 scale, as well as one extra vertical axis on the right side, showing the absolute deflection/excursion for a needle with 25 cu. The graphs all start below zero skating force - a little negative offset due to bearing friction alone already providing a tiny bit of antiskating.

Greetings from Munich!

Manfred / lini
 
A coincidence this topic is posted this morning.
I was experimenting with the antiskate on my Pl 540 last night.
My experience sounds similar to yours.

When I set the arm up, I adjusted the antiskate to the popular prescribed 75% of VTF.
I did notice the pl 540 arm seems a lot less sensitive mechanically compared to my bic 960 but my guess is the pioneer arm is heavier, don't know if that's true.
While listening I thought I would adjust antiskate and see if I could hear a difference in volume between the L and R channel.
Regardless how much I changed the antiskate force, I could not detect a difference in volume between the channels to the point I started to question if it even works. Kinda like the "close door button" on an elevator, I get the feeling it's only there to make the person pressing it feel better!
;)

I will say, on my bic 960 table, the antiskate seems to work as advertised...but not in my pioneer?
 
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I'm not sure how manufacturers arrive at any form of consistency or calibration of their anti skate devices. It's potentially just voodoo. And they certainly could change with age, or at least the spring types could.
This is my story too and I'm sticking with it.
I'm absolutely not going to obsess over AS.
 
A coincidence this topic is posted this morning.
I was experimenting with the antiskate on my Pl 540 last night.
My experience sounds similar to yours.

When I set the arm up, I adjusted the antiskate to the popular prescribed 75% of VTF.
I did notice the pl 540 arm seems a lot less sensitive mechanically compared to my bic 960 but my guess is the pioneer arm is heavier, don't know if that's true.
While listening I thought I would adjust antiskate and see if I could hear a difference in volume between the L and R channel.
Regardless how much I changed the antiskate force, I could not detect a difference in volume between the channels to the point I started to question if it even works. Kinda like the "close door button" on an elevator, I get the feeling it's only there to make the person pressing it feel better!
;)

I will say, on my bic 960 table, the antiskate seems to work as advertised...but not in my pioneer?
Yep, that sounds familiar. :) My experience was similar to yours. There is an easy way to test whether the AS works: Unplug the PL-540; set your AS to zero, then level your tonearm (stylus guard down) until it floats, support it with one hand and then turn the AS dial. If it works, the arm will swing out to the side. Mine does this quite vigorously, and more so the higher I set the AS dial.
 
Same thing I was thinking. Stop focusing on AS and start focusing on CA.
That's a good suggestion. I should probably check it with a protractor. I *did* adjust the cartridge following Pioneer's "workaround" advice, though, by squaring it in the headshell and spacing the stylus tip distance from the headshell washer to exactly 49 mm. This *should* make the use of a protractor superfluous, according to what I've read around here.
 
As I was setting up the cartridge and arm on my new to me pl 540 the other day I was looking at the AS adjustment knob wondering how accurate the markings were compared to the markings on the VTF counterweight.

Using a scale I verified the VTF measured 1.53g with the counterweight micrometer adjustment set to 1.5 so I assumed the AS would be fairly close as well but I have no means of measuring the force applied to the arm.

Another interesting find was made using the cartridge alignment tool, if the cartridge is setup accurately to the correct offset dimension(49mm in this case using a set of mitutoyo calipers), and the cartridge is square, it lines up very well to the two NULL points.
 
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As I was setting up the cartridge and arm on my new to me pl 540 the other day I was looking at the AS adjustment knob wondering how accurate the markings were compared to the markings on the VTF counterweight.

Using a scale I verified the VTF measured 1.53g with the counterweight micrometer adjustment set to 1.5 so I assumed the AS would be fairly close as well but I have no means of measuring the force applied to the arm.

Another interesting find was made using the cartridge alignment tool, if the cartridge is setup accurately to the correct offset dimension(49mm in this case using a set of mitutoyo calipers), and the cartridge is square, it lines up very well to the two NULL points.

Playing with the AS dial knob tells me that the accuracy of the markings is poor at best. When I set the dial to a particular marking, I can wiggle the whole thing back and forth about a millimeter or two without disturbing the alignment between the markings.

Reading about your Mitutoyo calipers (I had to google them) made me think that perhaps I should indeed verify the alignment with a protractor, as my calipers came from the bargain bin at ACE Hardware... :biggrin:

Which protractor did you use? Stevenson?
 
Kinda like the "close door button" on an elevator, I get the feeling it's only there to make the person pressing it feel better
Off topic: In US those buttons are programmed to work only in Fire Fighter mode (key turned to manual position).
In EU those buttons are working all the time.
 
Interesting idea, but unfortunately, the Pioneer PL-540 has a lateral balance weight that doesn't seem adjustable, and the manual makes no mention of that.

should be a set screw on it somewhere.........they had to add the thing on somehow. If interested, I can walk you through the process of adjusting it as needed.
 
should be a set screw on it somewhere.........they had to add the thing on somehow. If interested, I can walk you through the process of adjusting it as needed.
Hi Marc, thank you for offering to explain this to me. I admit I know nothing about the lateral weight. The PL-540 is the first TT in my possession that has such a weight, and although I always thought it adds to the sleek and "sophisticated" looks compared to my previous, more basic TTs, I have no clue what this weight actually does or why it's there. It is screwed onto a holding plate attached to the tonearm pivot, but I wouldn't know how one would adjust it, other than removing it altogether...? So yes, if you can share any insights, I'd greatly appreciate that. :)
 
As I understand it, the test for correct AS is not so much that it sounds any different during normal playback, but that both channels should begin to distort at the same time when you do get distortion. That is, you have to have a record that's cut too "hot" for your stylus, or indeed a dedicated test record with a "torture track."

That said, I set it with a blank (or if you don't own one, pick a record with a large dead wax area) and then don't worry about it too much. I know this method is not very accurate but then most AS mechanisms don't account for variation across the side, anyway.
 
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