Setting anti-skate twice as high as it "should" be?

[DesertTwang]

As I understand it, the test for correct AS is not so much that it sounds any different during normal playback, but that both channels should begin to distort at the same time when you do get distortion. That is, you have to have a record that's cut too "hot" for your stylus, or indeed a dedicated test record with a "torture track."

That said, I set it with a blank (or if you don't own one, pick a record with a large dead wax area) and then don't worry about it too much. I know this method is not very accurate but then most AS mechanisms don't account for variation across the side, anyway.

That makes sense. About the method using the deadwax: I've played around with that, too, but the time seems too short to see anything before the stylus gets caught in a lead-out groove when the record is spinning. How do you deal with that?

 

[ear4audio]

I've found the anti-skating adjustment varies depending on the turntable. I use the Shure Obstacle Course disc (equal force on each side of the groove based on distortion level). This method has its naysayers but it works for me. In any event, I found the Dual adjustment match the Shure results but the Yamaha adjustment is 50 to 100% lower.

 

[Moby Dick]

Playing with the AS dial knob tells me that the accuracy of the markings is poor at best. When I set the dial to a particular marking, I can wiggle the whole thing back and forth about a millimeter or two without disturbing the alignment between the markings.

Reading about your Mitutoyo calipers (I had to google them) made me think that perhaps I should indeed verify the alignment with a protractor, as my calipers came from the bargain bin at ACE Hardware...

Which protractor did you use? Stevenson?

I wouldn't bother spending money on top dollar calipers unless you really need them.
I was going to use a scale but since I have the calipers I chose to use them.
If you take your time you can get the cartridge alignment very close using a decent scale and your eyes.
If it looks close, it is!

I'm not sure which null point setup template I used, it was lent to me from a co-worker.
The null points were 66.0mm and 120.9mm

As I already said, with proper cartridge offset the alignement was very close.
Closer than I expected.

 

[bang4buck]

That makes sense. About the method using the deadwax: I've played around with that, too, but the time seems too short to see anything before the stylus gets caught in a lead-out groove when the record is spinning. How do you deal with that?

That means your AS is off and/or your TT is not sitting exactly level. When set correctly, the stylus will not move sideways at all until the groove comes along to grab it. Try to set it down just after the groove passes, then you can watch for one whole revolution.

Tip for those who only have pop/rock records, which tend to be crammed full: classical records often have a lot of dead wax because those guys 200 years ago didn't know they should compose for 20 minutes per side. So pick up a thrift store copy of Beethoven's 5th already.

 

[DesertTwang]

That means your AS is off and/or your TT is not sitting exactly level. When set correctly, the stylus will not move sideways at all until the groove comes along to grab it. Try to set it down just after the groove passes, then you can watch for one whole revolution.

Tip for those who only have pop/rock records, which tend to be crammed full: classical records often have a lot of dead wax because those guys 200 years ago didn't know they should compose for 20 minutes per side. So pick up a thrift store copy of Beethoven's 5th already.

Thank you for the tip about the classical albums! I actually have a few, but not payed attention how the deadwax compares to contemporary records. I should clarify that when I attempted this test, my stylus did indeed not move until a groove grabbed it. I just felt I'd prefer a bit more time for an accurate assessment than a second or two. But I'll try a classical record with larger deadwax. By the way, I remember watching a YouTube video of a presentation by some vinyl guru guy named Lederman, I believe, who recommended this approach to set antiskate. The stylus should move outward (I think?) ever so slightly on the deadwax, if AS is set correctly.

 

[SSaxdude]

Spring type antiskating mechanisms definitely do age. I've noticed this when comparing near identical Technics models (SL-D2 and 3, and a pair of SL-202s). That's one thing I love about the weight on a string type AS mechanisms; gravity doesn't change after several decades.

 

[DesertTwang]

I just picked up a $2 copy of an "Electric Avenue" 12" single because it has ample dead wax and room between the lead-out grooves.

 

[dosmalo]

I just picked up a $2 copy of an "Electric Avenue" 12" single because it has ample dead wax and room between the lead-out grooves.

And, its a really cool song!

 

[ear4audio]

Spring type antiskating mechanisms definitely do age. I've noticed this when comparing near identical Technics models (SL-D2 and 3, and a pair of SL-202s). That's one thing I love about the weight on a string type AS mechanisms; gravity doesn't change after several decades.

Weights provide a constant force across the playing surface of the record. But the centripetal force changes as the tonearm travels toward the center. The design of (some) spring antiskating mechanisms compensate for the increased inward force as the radius gets smaller. Some turntables have very sophisticated designs and others have simple spring-loaded mechanisms. Centripetal force will change depending on tonearm mass, stylus tip geometry and vertical tracking force among other things. Change one component and the AS needs to be readjusted.

 

[DesertTwang]

And, its a really cool song!

The B side has "Time Warp."

 

[Montycat]

... gravity doesn't change after several decades.

That's not what my gut tells me.

 

[lini]

Using a scale I verified the VTF measured 1.53g with the counterweight micrometer adjustment set to 1.5 so I assumed the AS would be fairly close as well but I have no means of measuring the force applied to the arm.

Not fairly close - the antiskating force would rather only be between 10 to 20 % of the VTF.

Greetings from Munich!

Manfred / lini

 

[Starquest]

Spring type antiskating mechanisms definitely do age. I've noticed this when comparing near identical Technics models (SL-D2 and 3, and a pair of SL-202s). That's one thing I love about the weight on a string type AS mechanisms; gravity doesn't change after several decades.

Do the tonearms on your tables pull very gently to the arm rest even with AS set at zero? Almost all my Technics do this.

 

[SSaxdude]

Do the tonearms on your tables pull very gently to the arm rest even with AS set at zero? Almost all my Technics do this.

They're all over the place. IIRC my SL-D2's tonearm would be stationary when floating from 0 to .5 on the AS dial, before it started it swing to the right. My SL-D3 pulls back even when the dial is set to 0. I can't remember how well the SL-220 antiskates worked. I do remember one felt smooth to turn and the other was really rigid.

 

[BobbyBluz]

I have one of the old Shure turntable calibration LP's and have found it to be an invaluable tool over the years. When I was at the radio station and responsible for the Technics 1200 mkII's for broadcast use I discovered a wide variance in the actual anti-skate settings from setting it with the Shure LP as opposed to the dial indicator on the turntable. Using the LP all of the settings were different and none matched each other. One way to check if the anti-skate is working is to set the tracking force at 0 grams with the tonearm parallel to the platter. After calibration the arm will move to the left or right depending upon the anti-skate force dialed in.

 

[jusmee]

Weights provide a constant force across the playing surface of the record. But the centripetal force changes as the tonearm travels toward the center. The design of (some) spring antiskating mechanisms compensate for the increased inward force as the radius gets smaller. Some turntables have very sophisticated designs and others have simple spring-loaded mechanisms. Centripetal force will change depending on tonearm mass, stylus tip geometry and vertical tracking force among other things. Change one component and the AS needs to be readjusted.

Weights do not provide a constant force, because the angle with which they act on the tonearm changes. As the tonearm progresses across the record, the angle becomes more acute, and the force from the weight decreases. Also, it is NOT centripetal force that cause skating, and the need for anti-skate mechanisms. For the stylus to have centripetal force acting on it, it would have to be spinning around with the record.

 

[Moby Dick]

This whole discussion really has me thinking about the limits to standard single pivot tonearms and tracking error(interesting to me because I'm so new to the hobby).

Considering the method which the records are cut, theoretically a linear tracking arm is the ideal. That got me wondering why the linear tracking tables never really took-off?
To that I have read that quality linear tracking tables or linear tracking tables which are not prone to failure are not common.
This made me ask why that is?

My first thought was the linear tracking tables didn't come to the market place until late in the game. Competition from CDs and even cassette tapes made vinyl nearly follow the way of the dinosaurs. This, I thought, meant the development of the linear tables was cut short and they never reached their potential.
This may be partially true but I got to thinking more about how the master recordings are cut and the flaws of linear trackers and wondered why there isn't a linear tracking table which has a geared drive system just like a master recording lathe.
That would solve all of the problems, the playback machine duplicates the recording machine!
Or so I thought.

Then I started researching standards for LP grooves per inch online and other than the recording industries associations specs on groove depth and maximum and minimum grove diameters, I did not see any standard for grooves per inch.
This led to reading how the length of LPs has evolved over time from 21 minutes per side to 27 minutes per side over the years.
Considering 33 1/3 rpm has remained unchanged, the only thing that varies when play time changes has go to be grooves per inch.
This lack of a standard for grooves per inch is exactly why linear tracking tables never will really be much better(at least to my ears), than standard single pivot tonearm designs.

At least that is what I have figured out so far...

Is any of this making sense?

 

[bang4buck]

^Here's a recent thread for you: http://audiokarma.org/forums/index....ng-tables-which-ones-are-worth-having.758647/

 

[c_dk]

An oscilloscope and the calibrated test records that cartridge manufactureres supplied to dealers back in the day are the only way to accurately, consistently set antiskate. You have to watch for the distortion and adjust accordingly.

As a project coming up with a local record store I will be comparing a HiFi news test disc with my vintage AT and Shure TRxxx records and hope to use a osciliscope program on a laptop instead of my Techtronics scope.

While I do have a functioning Shure C-PEC I hope I will be able to find away around it. Finding a replacement for the Wild M5 microscope to measure stylus wear, will be the biggest challenge

 

[bobins08]

should be a set screw on it somewhere.........they had to add the thing on somehow. If interested, I can walk you through the process of adjusting it as needed.

I think on the Pioneers, if they have the spring anti-skate mechanism, the dial setting are not very accurate over this much time so maybe the lateral adjustment will help.

Another reason I am so happy with Marc's updated AR tonearm on my XB ... no more anti skate adjustment. One less trial and error adjustment to not have to do. I don't hear any issues without it, I don't see any issues without it.