Inefficient Speakers.... Let's talk Tube Power!

Biamping with isn't foolish, but your drawing appears to represent sending full range signals though the speaker's crossover parts which is sometimes referred to as "Fool's Biamping".

It's an important distinction to recognize the effect of having active or passive frequency splits before the amps vs. sending full range signals though the speaker crossovers.

I'm sure my post will anger you but it's really important to understand the difference because it explains why you are hearing what you did (or perhaps more importantly, why you did not) in your previous endeavours.

Onplane is trying to guide you here, and that's good because he seems to have more patience than I. :)
No anger at all. I appreciate what everyone shares and always want to learn. WhenI didn't my heals in with an opinion its because I have invested a great deal of time and money to compare many situations and sometimes I call Dookie when I see Dookie. In my drawing note that my crossovers do not touch internally or externally. I did not need to active crossover. That means each speaker or driver is requesting what it wants and isn't sharing info with any other drivers request.

I get passive multi amping is inefficient. I know filters absorb a lot of power and make the requirement for power much higher. And that's exactly what is happening with my gear.

I have LOTs of time and energy not to mention money in testing bi-wiring, tri-wiring, bi-amping and tri-amping. I understand those who say its not possible and that the science doesnt support it... Most speaker crossovers are tied together. Mine are not. It is unanimous when anyone, even naysayers hear a speaker with crossover designed like mine. Of course their opinion is that it isn't possible because they have not experienced it. Look at my drawing closely. In the past my reason for preferring verticle by-amping was because i heard greater bass extension and a tighter sound, quicker recovery. Later I learned the "science" behind it was simple... each bass woofer now had its own power supply. It only competed with the top that didnt need hardly anything.
 
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I know what you mean.
I've seen a couple of sets go for a little better price on ebay recently, but I'd have to convince myself to sell most of my turntables first.

(I think these are updated black beauties)
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Carver-350-Watt-Stereo-Pair-Monoblock-Tube-Amp-Amplifiers-/192143427357?hash=item2cbca4071d:g:qhwAAOSwHMJYK30v&nma=true&si=UFAFu0SspOBlOiTJPGDu2oAnF7Q%3D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557
I'd have to sell a child... we dont have any.
 
Let's hear your journey. Let's hear your triumphs, let's quietly hear of your tears and deep sorrow from paths that crushed your Audio dreams. Spill it.
My first attempt at using tube amps with my stats was an Audio Research VT-100 MKII. Nice, but just didn't have enough dynamic power.

Since 2001, however, I've been a very happy camper using VTL MB-450 monoblocks. Having 300 watts each with 250 joule power supplies did the trick. Each one has its own 20A dedicated power line as well. They are also more convincing at conveying the emotion of the music. :)

Understand that tube amps are not necessarily a good match for all speakers given their relatively high source impedance. Speakers with roller coaster impedance curves are usually not a good fit.
 
I would give Mark at Rogue a call (yes he answers the phone) and tell him what you have and want to do. He will give you suggestions. He is an honest guy he wont try to sell you his stuff if he thinks it wont give you what you want
 
I have, several times. I see two parallel runs of wire to the LF input from one channel of the amp, and I see the MF and HF inputs tied in parallel from the other channel of the amp.
I appreciate you looking. (I took about 20 minutes to draw that with my giant fingers on a little iPad lol.) Most important is the filters. Usually when you take apart a speaker or trace a cross over board the speaker posts all connect inside making the binding posts really just hype. I dont claim to be a electrical engineer or even smart... I claim to be hard working at trial and error and drinking cheap whiskey with other dudes while we share swap and borrow anything we can get our hands on to compare. My shop at work use to be a candy store. I had the privilege to try really expensive speakers. The rotating stock was so great I couldn't even begin to try everything. Amps, line stages, speakers, high speaker wire, tables... you name it. Now it's just what stuff me and my friends share.
 
It seems a large number of members here endorse the SS on the bottom and Valves for the mid's and high's. But don't automatically assume that tubes won't sound better on the lower end. I liked how the lower range reacted to tubes as much as I did the rest of the spectrum, it just has more soul.
 
It seems a large number of members here endorse the SS on the bottom and Valves for the mid's and high's. But don't automatically assume that tubes won't sound better on the lower end. I liked how the lower range reacted to tubes as much as I did the rest of the spectrum, it just has more soul.
this has been my experience a few times as well
 
My B&W DM16 speakers are only rated at 87db so they're quite inefficient. On the other hand my modified Yaqin MC10T push / pull tube amp can push them to party volumes with no issues and it has plenty of everything (bass, mids, treble). Don't use tone or balance control on the amp, use a MiniDSP 2x4HD and microphone instead.
 
My B&W DM16 speakers are only rated at 87db so they're quite inefficient. On the other hand my modified Yaqin MC10T push / pull tube amp can push them to party volumes with no issues and it has plenty of everything (bass, mids, treble). Don't use tone or balance control on the amp, use a MiniDSP 2x4HD and microphone instead.
If those are the speakers I think they are they only go down to something like 65Hz and they were design for a 15watt RMS. The trouble I'm having is my mains can hit 19hz. They gobble up power and want it done very fast. I gained by going from 3oo plus watts per side to over 800 watts per side. I looked at some of the higher powered Yaqin tube amps thinking I could verticly biamp two stereo amps... but even then I decided it just might not be able to keep up with the bass.
 
It seems a large number of members here endorse the SS on the bottom and Valves for the mid's and high's. But don't automatically assume that tubes won't sound better on the lower end. I liked how the lower range reacted to tubes as much as I did the rest of the spectrum, it just has more soul.

+1 on that. I suggest to try your system with full range tube amps before complicating things with biamping and electronic crossovers.

Furthermore, If you really need the power don't rule out that using a big solid state amp full range may sound better than biamping.

The biamped systems I have heard sounded kind of disjointed and weird, really not my cup of tea. Not to mention the absolutely excessive amount of complexity!

Get your hands on a 50-100W tube amp and figure out for yourself if it's enough power... it really may be, there's no use in speculaing.
 
There is this option... http://www.zeroimpedance.com/zeroimpedance_011.htm

I have a pair of Atma-Sphere M60 monoblock tube amps that will run 60 WPC into 8 ohm speakers and roughly 45 WPC into 4 ohm speakers.

I talked with Ralph Karsten at Atma-Sphere who told me that the amps would have an output of 80 WPC using the above boxes. Not earth shattering by any means but thought I'd throw it out there.
 
If those are the speakers I think they are they only go down to something like 65Hz and they were design for a 15watt RMS. The trouble I'm having is my mains can hit 19hz. They gobble up power and want it done very fast. I gained by going from 3oo plus watts per side to over 800 watts per side. I looked at some of the higher powered Yaqin tube amps thinking I could verticly biamp two stereo amps... but even then I decided it just might not be able to keep up with the bass.

Running a modified Yaqin MC10T (Mundorf ZN caps, Tokos Cosmos volume pot, better tubes) and the speakers have plenty of mid bass. A subwoofer is needed for deep, low bass due to the 65Hz cut off. I've a Wharfedale SW150 which caters to that requirement very nicely. It's a fantastic sounding system :)
 
I run a Acurus A200 amp (300 watts per side @4ohms) on the Bass panels of my modified tri-amped Magnapan MGIIIa, and run Quicksilver mono blocks M60 (60 watts @4 ohms) on the midrange panels and Mini Mono blocks (30 watts @2 ohm) on the ribbon tweeters with wonderful success. The Quicksilvers replaced 2 Acurus A200 amps and the result is what I was looking for. I use a modified Behringer DCX-2496 crossover.
Regards,
Jim
 
I would spend my money on a good tube pre-amp and keep the existing power-amps.
You get a great proportion of the tube sound whit less problems.
 
Inefficient speakers are always best flogged with solid state. If you routinely are pushing > 100 watts, unless you are made of money, it is silly to contemplate using tubes to make you happier.
 
I hope to be able to experiment a bit during the weekend with a Mastersound 300b SET amplifier (hopefuly) on loan during the weekend. My speakers are ATC SCM 11 V2 and AR-3, so both with sealed cabinets and fairly inefficient. I'll see what can they do with a low power amp like the Mastersound.
 
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