Where is your point of diminishing returns?

[MotherSauce1]

MrPig I always love seeing your name pop up on the forums as I like your perspective. Out of curiosity what is your main system looking like these days? Ohighway nice signature...make me curious what you're listening to these days also lol

 

[sKiZo]

40+ years and I haven't found it yet. I'll report back when I do ... <G>

 

[RGA]

The law of diminishing returns is highly subjective and not directly tied to dollars but your take on sound. Let's pick any two speakers as an example - Magnepan and Vanderteen. Now if you like a panel sound then you may very well like the $1800 Magnepan 1.7 over ANY Vandersteen including his $50,000+ flagships. Both speakers may get rave reviews but the fact is that the 1.7 has a certain sound and if you think that "sound" is correct then Vandersteen (no matter how much it is) is wrong because it never sounds like a 1.7. So you will say - the person buying the Vandersteen at $50k is nuts because it's worse (to you) than a $1800 loudspeaker. Of course the reverse is also true - I know just as many people if not more that can't stand the sound of Magnepan and will prefer to listen to a $3k Vandersteen over a $15k Magnepan 20.1.

The point being is that notion of value is dependent on the individual. For instance in both cases - chances are the guy who loves his 1.7 would rather have the 3.7 or the 20.7 if he could afford them or had the space for them - and that will hold true of the guy who owns the $3k Vandy - he would probably tell you the $50k+ model is a lot better but again price and size are the limiting factors.

It's somewhat important not to get caught up in spending to impress others - I have spent a rather large sum on stereo since Christmas and I could have spent more but at the end of the day - it's a balance between buying something better versus what is good enough. For instance a few weeks ago I bought the Audio Note M3 Phono Balanced MKiii preamp and I was also looking at the near double the price M6 Phono and I directly compared the two for quite awhile. The M6 is better and I even feel it is worth the money but if you are not directly comparing them - the M3 is still plenty of great.

I am also fortunate to live in a country that pays teachers well because had I taken the job in the States or Canada - the M3 or my AN E/Spx Alnico speakers would never happen. So to a degree it is somewhat good to have lived poor and to struggle in your life at some point so that when you do come into some money that you be watchful of both diminishing returns AND to why you are spending the money - Does your musical enjoyment increase with the added dollars or does the enjoyment of shopping and chasing gear go up when you spend the money - shopping increases endorphins and a lot of audiophiles are on an endless cycle of upgrades and buying. Is it about the music at all or is it about the gear. The marketing of the review industry also pressure people into buying new technology and keeping up with the Jones'.

As a reviewer I am far more interested in what some of these makers can do with less dollars than at the high end. The high end is typically easier to get to sound good. Less to no limitations.

And then there is exposure to gear - you catch yourself saying "this is my final preamp" or "this is my final speaker" then you hear something that may change your mind. At the California Audio Show I heard a speaker (only one) that could get me to change my speakers. I envy people who feel that spending more than $300 is a waste.

 

[HTWillie]

For amplifiers and speakers, my cost/benefit curve levels out around $2000 each. To be significantly happier I'd have to spend significantly more.

...if I had the resources of Bill Gates, I'd have my own auditorium set up for listening to records. The room being the most important component.

Me too. About 30 seats wide, 12 rows deep. And a small orchestra pit in front of the stage.

All my rooms suck.

 

[Mister Pig]

MrPig I always love seeing your name pop up on the forums as I like your perspective. Out of curiosity what is your main system looking like these days? Ohighway nice signature...make me curious what you're listening to these days also lol

Thank you for the kind words, I am just a simple pig trying to muddle my way through this hobby. In october of 2016 we bought a different home, and I revamped the system to fit the new living area. I bought different speakers, and that created a cascade of equipment changes, ending up in almost a whole system revamp. It consists of

JBL 4365 speakers
Musical Fidelity Nuvista M3 integrated amp

Digital:

Audio Magic Kukama DAC
Mac Mini server with Pure Music
PS Audio LANRover
Singxer SU1 USB SPDIF converter
Wireworld Silver Starlight USB cable/ Wireworld Starlight Ethernet cable/ VH Audio digital cable

Analog:

Technics SP 10 MK II table in custom layered plinth/ Riggle 12" String Theory arm/ ZYX 4D cartridge
Galibier Audio Serac table/ SOTA ST 202 arm with Riggle VTAF/ Ortofon Cadenza Red cartridge
Denon DP 75 table in VPI plinth/ Acos GST 801 arm/ Fidelity Research MC201 cartridge

Associated:

PS Audio P 10 power conditioner
PI Audio Group power cords
Wireworld Eclipse 7 speaker wire
VH Audio Spectrum CU interconnects
Salamander Designs Geneva credenza

It's a decent little system that lets me enjoy some music. I originally bought the JBL thinking they would be a good match for my Electra Print amp, but discovered that they want more current to control the woofers than I had, in spite of their efficiency. Which led to the purchase of the Musical Fidelity. Getting my CD's out of my listening room and tidying things up led to the Mac, and all that associated equipment was needed to get the thing to sound decent. It was a success, and sounds better than my EAD transport.

Regards
Mister Pig

 

[nailer]

The Law of Diminishing Returns came into play after purchasing my first system in 74 and I've been ignoring it since then.

 

[ev13wt]

Since we are talking money, for speakers, my diminishing ret. would be somewhere between 6k to 25k for a pair.

Gear? 2k for amp, preamp, DAC. Unless the above are active speakers.

Very, very good sound new can also be had for under 3k for everything.

Used, all bets are off.

 

[Todd Dodds]

Carts...I am fighting the urge to find out what double the money might yield.

 

[mjw21a]

I've already hit that wall for my systems. It has meant sticking with Chinese electronics and having it modified to improve its performance, as well as buying used speakers (Aurum Cantus F620 speakers).

Plenty of research online as well as willingness to take a chance (early adopter) on some lesser known gear and barely known esoteric gear from Japan has allowed me to achieve a level of sound that trumps the best gear at the Bang & Olufsen showroom at a tiny fraction of the cost.

The end is in sight with a new higher mass dual arm plinth for my JVC TT-71, and modification of my Oldchen K3 to be switchable between ultralinear and triode modes.

 

[Johnny 007]

Diminishing returns: you spend more money but the improvement in sound is marginal, at best. I guess some people get a kick out of spending more money...

 

[DrumminDaddy]

I'm a little washy on where that point is.

But my wife is extremely opinionated about where it is, and will not hesitate to express her opinion at every opportunity!

 

[SteveA]

Carts...I am fighting the urge to find out what double the money might yield.

Be very careful. I once made the mistake, when looking at a phono stage that cost many times what my Dynavector P75 did, of saying to the dealer "Just how much better could one of those uber stages really be?" His answer was "why don"t you take it home and find out".

The bastard knew what would happen and I walked right into it. At least I did audition a couple of other similarly priced stages before emptying my pockets.

Of course at that point I was right in line for thinking that the new stage really deserved a good cartridge.

 

[Poultrygeist]

Fortunately with DIY there always seems to be light at the end of the tunnel and the upgrades are affordable.

Guess I've tried a dozen different drivers in the same open baffles and loved many of them but the real fun is in the chase.

 

[ev13wt]

Fortunately with DIY there always seems to be light at the end of the tunnel and the upgrades are affordable.

Guess I've tried a dozen different drivers in the same open baffles and loved many of them but the real fun is in the chase.

True - and before I plop down 25K for a pair of speakers, I'd be far into DIY...

 

[musichal]

My math teacher taught me back in the '60s that points are imaginary, and just as in math, once you locate the point on a graph, it's time to locate the next one. The point of diminishing returns is all about the money, and that is fine - we all have budgets, and live in the real world.

I do like that Archguy personalized the question, recognizing that the point is arbitrary and we are each our own arbiter. But even given that, there is no equation or formula for precisely locating this particular imaginary point, which has a tendency to shift anyway (not yours? what if you hit the lottery?). I know I haven't reached mine, from a strict quality-of-sound perspective, because I have heard Khorns sound better when supplied more upscale ancillary equipment. I am planning a purchase that will probably put me at my own PDR, but I know I'm not there yet. Well, I might be for my choice of speaker, but that could change, too.

 

[sanford12]

I had the pleasure of listening several 20 to 70,000+ dollar stereos at the Denver Audio Show and there were some stunners. Jaw dropping but none that would make me drop that kinda dough even if I had it. If I wind up buying the Outlaw 2ch receiver I'll have about 2100 in my set up which includes everything in my signature and I'm a happy man.

 

[Hyfi]

I recently auditioned a system in the $250K range just after listening to one in the $50K range. Of course it was not 200 times better because the Audible increase cannot be correlated to the dollar amount spent.

The all Burmester system driving the latest Wilson Alexia 2s was fabulous and if I had that kind of cash to spend, I wouldn't hesitate. On the other hand, I have been auditioning systems because I keep wanting to sell off almost all my gear and buy one killer setup at or below $20K. But, I am finding out quickly that it may cost much more than $20K to best my current system.

On to what I own.....My first expensive Amp, to me, was my Odyssey Stratos + that I paid $1100 for when new. My current Amp is a Counterpoint NPS-400 that cost $4500 when new.
Is the Counterpoint 4x better than the Stratos? NO, but it is much more refined and detailed and realistic sounding, but there is no way you could say 4 times better.

You don't buy better gear thinking you will double or triple the performance. You buy it because you can and want to.

For me the LODR kicks in after the $4-5K range for a complete system but I still plan to spend around $20K for electronics and speakers as I downsize.

 

[just dave]

Amplification I'm probably pretty close,cause for me they don't make a lot of difference but speakers I've got a ways to go. Not that I'm gonna go chasing that elusive beast but maybe one more upgrade speakerwise.

 

[jrtrent]

The law of diminishing returns is highly subjective and not directly tied to dollars but your take on sound. . .

Nice example with the speakers. A similar situation can apply to other components, too, and I remember some years back (prior to the release of the original VPI Scout, a 'table everyone seemed to love) many people of a Flat Earth bent saying they'd take a lower-end Rega over anything at any price offered by companies like VPI, SOTA, Basis, and Teres--not bad 'tables, but a different set of sonic strengths.

. . . at the end of the day - it's a balance between buying something better versus what is good enough. . .

Yep. The concept of diminishing returns recognizes that there can always be something better, but as one definition put it, the benefits gained are worth less than the amount of money spent. I'm sure my good enough bar has lowered over time. I sold my 1985 LP12 to help fund the purchase of a new 1993 Cirkus LP12 because the difference in sound was something I didn't want to live without (though I never felt the same about the Keel upgrade, a fancier power supply, or moving up to an Ekos from my Ittok LVIII/2). A couple decades later, looking at a sizable expense for the parts needed to get my LP12 ready to give another couple decades of great sound (power supply, motor, and spindle/thrust plate assembly were recommended) I found that I could live very happily with a Rega RP3, which the sale of the old LP12 more than covered the cost of. Though the LP12 is better in direct comparison, I spend just as much time listening to my records and feel just as engaged with the performances as I did with the Linn.

. . . I envy people who feel that spending more than $300 is a waste.

The OP had mentioned being able to be happy with speakers in the $249 to $299 range. I think I could find something satisfactory in that range, too. With a good turntable and amplifier, I can be more than satisfied with entry-level cartridges and speakers. Expensive transducers just don't often seem, to my ears, to provide any exceptional advance over many of the low cost options. Like the OP, though, I don't require "ground-shaking" bass, and, of late, even things like stereo imaging and reasonably loud volume levels aren't part of my buying concerns. Simple 2-way designs seem to do a good job with timing and rhythmic coherence, and many of the more expensive speakers I've heard don't do as good a job of just getting out of the way of the music. It's been about 24 years ago, but I used to work for a hifi shop that sold Vandersteen. Of their whole line, the little Model 1 was my favorite, and I bought a pair of 1C's about a decade ago that fit well into an apartment I was renting at the time.

 

[sanford12]

Simple 2-way designs seem to do a good job with timing and rhythmic coherence, and many of the more expensive speakers I've heard don't do as good a job of just getting out of the way of the music.

I agree. I just prefer the sound I've heard thorough 2-way speakers for the last few years.