Anyone good with line array series vs parallel wiring?

You could get 8 ohms from 4x8ohm + 6x4ohm but not from 2x8ohm + 8x4ohm drivers so your balance will be uneven.
Get two more 8ohm drivers and skip 2 of the 4ohm and that should make this doable, I think.
Second option, sell the 8 ohm and get 2 more 4 ohm drivers and go with 8x4ohm per side. Now that's easy math there!
 
Don't think about your panels as being 4 ohm panels and 8 ohm panels, because they aren't. You have to wire them according to how they actually measure. Otherwise, you'll end up with a grouping with either a much higher than 8 ohm impedance, or an unusually low impedance group. Especially since some of your panels measure at 2.7 ohms. Plus, your crossover will have to be calculated using actual measured impedance's. Otherwise your crossover points/slopes won't be accurate.

And speaking of the crossover, any ideas? First order, 2nd order, or greater? Parallel or series? Crossover points? Active? Brian, at VMPS, used 6db first order series crossovers. His bandpass points for the panels were 280Hz, and around 7.5KHz, since the panels are fairly full-range. The panels go higher, above 15Khz, but they'll get a bit beamy if used that high. Plus, there's a slight built in response peak at 12KHz some users like to avoid by using a bandpass design, then handing off to separate tweeter(s). Though you could add a zobel circuit to eq the peak a little flatter, if desired.

Finally, besides having panels of 2 different impedance's, you have panels of 2 different styles. In your picture, the top and bottom panel, in each stack have 13 aperture openings (with curvy fluted edges) (4 total), while the other 16 have 8 aperture openings. So, I'd recommend using those 13 aperture panels together as the middle 2 of a column, since those 13 aperture panels have a much broader dispersion pattern. Then use the remaining impedance matched 8 aperture panels above and below the center pair. You could have a 3+2+3 layout, or a 4+2+4 layout, depending on how your individual panels impedance's match up. But, the center 2 panels combined impedance should be slightly lower or equal to the other panels, so they aren't too low in level, compared to the others.

Hope this makes sense!?!
 
Thank you for all the comments!

Yes I have already taken into account the curvy edges vs the straight ones. I should actually be able to use no curvy ones since I have extra 4ohm ones.

Crossover from 200hz to 5khz rest taken over by a ribbon tweeter line array.

Woofers will be 6x 12 inch open baffle towers acoustic elegance speakers. (6 per side that is)

Tweeters will also be dipole with tweeters on front and back.

I am very excited to put this all together but I am still saving for the tweeters and woofers.
Importing 100 ribbon tweeters oem from fountek is pretty inexpensive at around $20 per driver.
Still that is $2000.

Woofers from AE are $280 each when bought in bulk.
So that is 6k I need to come up with before I can finish this build.

Not to mention I need amps. I was thinking tube on midrange panel, class D hypex monoblocks on woofers and unknown on tweeters.

I really should make another thread. This one was more just for help on getting the wiring correct.
 
Twenty buck$ each for Fountek ribbon tweeters is a pretty sweet deal. But, buying 100 adds up fast! How many ribbons per speaker are you considering?

Are the woofers Acoustic Elegance Dipole 12's? Very nice looking woofer. They should be awesome open baffle. Strange that they use a soft surround, and have a 0.68 Qts, for a OB dipole woofer. Seems like acoustic suspension specs. But, I'm no expert.

Also, have you looked at the GR Research OB woofers? There are 8" & 12" servo driven woofers available (not mine).

http://gr-research.com/sw-12-08-1.aspx
http://gr-research.com/sw-12-04.aspx
http://gr-research.com/sw-12-08fr.aspx
http://gr-research.com/sw-12-16fr.aspx

GR Research sells the servo plate amps too (again, not mine).

http://gr-research.com/electronics.aspx

GR Research AC Discussion Circle.

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?board=16.0

They might make for a slightly less expensive alternative? Plus, OB servo driven woofers should sound epic, and have the speed to mate well with the Monsoon panels.

Just a thought! :)
 
Another good thread over at AC. There's a guy who builds flat-pack OB frames for 8" & 12" woofers. The frames are available in dual, triple, and multiple configurations. The multiple is a single frame design, that's made to stack, for as meany woofers as needed.

Here's an unfinished triple 12 OB.

image.php


Also, unfinished 6X12 stacks, with grills.

d3239b80-54ea-445b-8acb-0b06b9f57d54_zpsy9c4thco.jpg



Here's the thread. The OP makes and sells the woofer frame kits (none mine).

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=130747.0
 

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The issue then is still the fact that the 8 ohm panels will not be reproducing the same level as the 4 ohm drivers.
 
Seems I dropped out of the thread after posting. This project is probably long gone but for the benefit of anyone else reading:

The idea to taper the power output was an excellent one and it is done on very expensive LA speakers.

In the interim since this thread appeared, I did a bunch of research and scribbling to design some LA's. There are all kinds of ways to arrange drivers and something should work here. The main thing is to make each side identical to the other.

Those drivers were clearly 4 and 8 ohms BTW, the DC resistance always measures lower than AC impedance.

Finally, you don't absolutely have to have an overall 8 ohms exactly. You can series/parallel drivers in creative ways (taking into account power tapering) and if you come up with 6.2 or 7 ohms or 8.9 or anything else reasonable, it will work fine. The actual impedance will affect the crossover network though and should be taken into account.
 
Well, Since it looks like I've "awakened" this thread, I have a question! I am in the middle of rebuilding a set of Infinity RS-1b speakers that I recently acquired. After I received the set I found that several drivers were bad. The crossover didn't work correctly and the soldering was horrible and full of cracks. And someone had removed all of the original crossover parts and fusing in the bottom of the Mid/Hi cabinets." Being a tinkerer anyway, I have purchased all new Bohlender-Graebner mids, "Neo8 transducers" And I wish to add a few to the lineup as I'd heard technically this was a collapsing line source array and the weak spot was the third Emim down, so with seven total I can utilize two planars to do the work of the one. There was plenty of room to do this and enough to add an eigth if I wish. And I have them all temporarily mounted. Temporarily because I also wish to change the angle of a few. "The top and bottom two on each side" to align them to my ear height. When I received the set it was wired as series/parallel. I am wondering if there would be a better way to do this. Maybe taking them back towards what they were originally but I am not sure quite how to do this and I would also have to design/build the crossover network for the mids. Especially after reading the above which just gives me more questions than answers. I am beginning to get out of my depth with this rebuild. But I have never been one to give up. could anyone help? I am also rebuilding the bass cabinets as 70% of the drivers did not work and again the soldering was horrible. Some of it, "Came apart in my hands" I am planning on tri-amping these and possibly even quad IF I split the six woofers in the bass cabinets and run a separate crossover for bass and mid-bass. And I do have two subs that I plan on still using for 60 Hz. and below.
I did also purchase 2-"X-kitz", K231 audiophile grade active crossovers with some extra frequency modules to play around with a few crossover Idea's that I have. This is simply to get away from the old original crossover completely.
Here are two pics of where I stopped last night. I stopped before using any more of the mil-spec 31 strand 12 gauge silver wire I've acquired to do this. But the Emits are already done. I was thinking of wiring now with some 12 gauge oxy free cu that I already have. and if I have to scrap that, its going to be WAY less wallet damage than the silver! rebuildrewire1.jpg
ANY help would be GREATLY appreciated!
 

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You can find the RS-1B Technical Manual here. It at least shows the proper wiring for both high and low towers.

As to replacing the EMIM's, there's not much out there, other than the occasional used spare on eBay. Or, you could contact Apogee Acoustics, as the owner 'Graz' fabbed a new replacement EMIM diaphragm. Not cheap, but it's supposed to sound better than the original EMIM. They have a U.S. Rep in Virginia. Maybe try them first, if interested? And while the BG Radia NEO8 panels are very good, they don't have the low end extension of the EMIM. So you'll definitely have to play with the crossover frequencies.

The other EMIM possibility is the Monsoon NEO8. It has a wider frequency range than the BG mid. Plus, most versions have a similar sensitivity and impedance to the EMIMs. Again, you'll have to search eBay for the panels. But, they have been used to rebuild RS-1A/B's before. Some up on eBay now (not mine), if you want to see a finished version.

Good luck.
 
Thanks. I looked for "Graz" one night for quite awhile and for some reason all I came up with were dead ends. These had the Monsoon's in them when I received them. I don't know if this makes much difference but these are the Neo9s models.
I guess that I just didn't like the idea of buying more "used" speakers to fix these. I figured that I'd basically start from scratch. I'm not so much trying to rebuild these as the Infinity speakers that were but more just, "My" speakers that will be.
There are huge fans of every type of speaker design out there for various reasons and one way or another they all seem pretty satisfied. Besides wouldn't the fact that the Monsoon's were mounted so that at the face of the speaker was 3/4" behind flush negate a fair bit of the speakers design? Anyway I am just wondering about the best way to wire these.
 
Anyway I am just wondering about the best way to wire these.

With 5 panels, I'd do a 2 + 3 parallel wiring scheme. Two in series together would be roughly 15.2 ohms. The other 3 in series would be 22.8 ohms. 15.2 + 22.8 in parallel, would end up being 9.1 ohms. An easy load for any amp.

Also, I'd wire the 2 panels closet to ear level together. Maybe the middle panel, with the one above it? That'd focus the mids at ear level. Then the remaining three together. But, be prepared to experiment. Who knows what will end up working, since this is an experimental speaker.
 
hmm, but I have 7 panels mounted with a possibility of adding a eighth mid. I was already thinking of using your idea about the two closest mid's to my ear height which would be the Third and fourth down. What would you think of 3 in series and 4 in parallel giving me 7.6 Ohm load? The load is nice but I am not sure about the imaging characteristics. And what do you think that would do to the "collapsing" line source configuration. "At this point that is simply a phrase that I currently do not understand." I have raised the hi/mid cabinets by about 2.75" with an outrigger system I've devised. What you cannot see in the pic are the 1/2"x1.25"Dia., Sorbothane, Silicone and Corian discs which make up an constrained damping, Coupling/De-coupling system underneath the cabinets. It works quite well. The aluminum you see is a mock up. Soon I wish to be able to remove the mid's as a one piece unit "Of aluminum angle, brass and maple", to rewire, and adjust the driver angles. I think you can see in the pic the angles that the top two and bottom two drivers currently have. what do you think of this approach? Also what would I gain by overlapping the drivers? I know that the closer they are together the better and it would actually help with the angles if designed properly. And it would also shorten the line vertically by 2.7 inches making the possible eighth driver even easier to include. which if I wired 3x5 drivers series and parallel would again give me a 7.6 Ohm load. Or even 2x6 with again the 7.6 ohm load. And that "should' give me 25% more detail right? or am I missing something? I am looking to adjust time alignment using "wire twist", wire length time correction. And just to throw another wrench at it. I am working on adding a single dome tweeter, "super tweeter" to the top of that cabinet using a "Snail body' shaped enclosure similar to the one used on the B&W 800's. Do you think there any benefit or am I just making this more complicated with diminishing gains as I do this? Also, amps aren't a problem, I kinda have a plethora of them. How much do you think adding the two drivers to what is an open baffle design with the top and bottom driver being "partially" enclosed in back going to affect the design? I can make it fully open baffle but again with the diminishing return values I am not sure it would be worth it. I also wanted to "NOT", chop up the cabinets "at all", just in case some one in the future wished to reconfigure these as the original RS-1b's.
Thanks!
7driverpic.jpg
 
I'm very sorry about misunderstanding on how many panels you used. From the picture earlier in the thread, I 'thought' you were using 5. So, that's what I used for my suggestions and calculations. But, if you're willing and able to do an even amount of panels, I'd go full line array, with every panel receiving the same signal. Just use whichever series/parallel wiring method that works best, for each pair of mids, to add up to a benign load. Then your speakers would be as close to a mini-IRS, as you could get.

As to the "collapsing" line source configuration, I think that's a term I believe I used in an older post. Simply stated, the RS-1A/B's aren't 'true' line arrays, as the signal is divided between the various EMIM's. As I think you know, the 3rd EMIM from the top, is crossed over separately from the rest of the EMIM's. It's a true midrange driver. The remaining EMIM's are used as mid-bass, lower midrange drivers. They all share a different, lower crossover point. Think of the Beta system. The Beta's and RS-1B's are very similar in driver use, even though they look very different. The Beta's use that single EMIM midrange, with the 2 large lower mid panels. The RS-1B's do the same thing; it's just less obvious. The single 3rd EMIM is the sole midrange driver, and then the other 6 EMIM drivers, which are used for midbass duty only, are the RS-1B's version of those large Beta panels. As such, as you climb in frequency, less drivers are used, which keeps dispersion from narrowing and collapsing. So, no narrow sweet spot, with good imaging, and a wide sound stage!
 
Ok then, thank you,. I guess the end result I am trying to achieve is not a mini line source. But instead a 5-way? system. 60-80 Hz down I am going to use my two Martin logan descents. I want to split the bass cabinets up with two different drivers . Three for mid-bass and 3 for what I'll call 'Hi-bass. Then the mids "where the majority of the music is" will be able to utilize the seven or eight actual mids. I see what you mean with the lessened range of these drivers but I was very impressed in what I heard about these as midrange drivers. I thought I could "fairly easily" change this system to what I was thinking about. And it has been fairly easy up to this point. But I guess this is where the rubber has to meet the road with the wiring being finalized. The thing is, the way I'm setting these up it "should", (Famous last words), be easy to experiment with the wiring , crossovers and even drivers. Then, until I am satisfied OR change them back fairly close to the original configuration. But WAY better than when I received them. I am thinking I will use another active crossover for the bass cabinets "Unless I get a better idea", maybe a DBX, OR I could get another pair of the K31 crossovers but they aren't exactly cheap. But I am REALLY impressed with their build quality, specs. and interchangeability with the frequency modules. But again, I pay for all of that!
I wanted the accuracy and speed of the Martin Logan electrostats I used to have. Also the imaging. But I want very accurate punchy bass as well. Like everyone these days I want to have my cake and eat it to! I was going to use 3 of the original woofers but am wondering about that now. They are ancient! But then I am getting there also!
Thanks again and anymore thought please post them.
 
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