Buying Etiquette here and anywhere

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I buy and sell here. Tell me why I shouldn't fell jerked around by someone doing a u-turn. I go by the personal creed of treating others the way I wish to be treated.

I didn't mean to imply that their actions of backing out of the sale were acceptable, just explainable.
 
It happens all the time and it is frustrating what I do is just put them on my blocked buy/sell list that I keep in a text document with a little note regarding the deal then when and if they want to buy something in the future I tell them no and why or if I see something I want to buy I check it against my list then if they are on the list I dont buy from them. Mostly it happens in little bunches 3-4 it seems in a row and then all is good for a while. I have one now that said he wanted to purchase some tubes but has not replied back in 3 days I of course can sell the tubes later or in a different venue but I hate the fact that he has wasted my time by not even saying anything and if someone else wanted to buy them I could not sell them because I was holding them for him very inconsiderate so on the list he goes.

I am certain it happens on other forums also I just don't sell much elsewhere.


Regards Snow
 
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Nobody has any rights to the gear until the money has been received. Doesn't matter what they say, the seller decides and that should be with a money talks and the bs takes a hike method, no dibs, no sold marking by a buyer and such. Of course, if someone enters into a verbal deal and then backs out, that is just not right and Snow seems to have that covered with his personal documentation of his experiences that he wants to remember.

Just like at the thrifts, if you see it and grab it, get it paid for before someone else takes it from your cart and goes to the register with it. If it is something you need to think about, do the thinking before claiming the unit.

Many here try to have positive experiences and provide same to the other party and then there is the other side of that coin which this thread is about. Seems we ought to learn from this discussion and try to make these buying and selling experiences as good as possible.
 
That's some opinionated and downright condescending bullshit right there!

Mit, I'm sorry you feel that my opinion is condenscending. We have an audio society meeting Saturday, and I'll ask how many folks consider a Marantz 2230 to be an upper level audiophile receiver, which appears from your response to be a given fact. Please note I did not say a disparaging word about the 2230, and that I noted any number of people here get quite excited over purchases of used gear they have wanted for decades. Two friends just got their first 2230s here in St. Louis, and are bursting with joy, hence my citing the circumstance.

Mark, you are one of the reasons I will never be a subscriber here. You have been one of the beaters who represent non-subscribers in negative terms. This needs to end. The owners make a tidy profit from this site, so I feel zero compunction to further support or feather the nest. Others can do such as they want, this was a free country last time I checked. The main JBL, Klipsch, Polk, Altec, and Audio Circles sites utilize different forum business models.

There are a multitude of signs about the relative economic profile of members and posters here. Look at the banner ads and business members here, look at the buying and purchase threads, look at what sells in Bartertown and the average transaction price, look at what gets traction and sells, look at what doesn't sell. Look at the new gear forums and the level of the new gear being purchased, reviewed, and sold here compared to other sites. Look at the number and level of kits being purchased. There are all kinds of telltales that accurately peg a good number of the active posters here.

DS200, I am sorry about your difficulties. Times are very hard for any number of people throughout the country, and those on AK are not immune. It would be nice for timely and effective communication to happen with every potential sale. Unfortunately and across many forums and various sales sites, no sales have become increasingly common.
 
@sheltie dave you response clearly indicates that you missed my point entirely. I was not responding to your statement about Marantz nor do I have an opinion about it or any Marantz gear one way or the other. What I take offense to and called BS is you first making an assumption about the economic status of the bulk of the members here in a very condescending way and then added insult to injury by saying these poor people as you called them were the cause of an assortment of buying and selling issues. Then you put icing on the cake by insulting some people’s (I assume) idea of desirable gear basically further labeling them as riff-raff. I don’t think you could have formulated a much more elitist insulting statement if you tried.
 
Seems to me there are two totally unique debates going on here.

One has to do with the average wealth of AK members. I really don't care what the answer to that question is. If a member is looking for good audio, at any price point, then I am glad to be a member with them. I found out a long time ago that money was not corelated with great sounding music. Some expensive gear is great, but so is a lot of inexpensive classic gear with some sweat equity. The pursuit of the best sound for my ears is all that matters to me, and is all that should matter to anyone. And the size and sonics of your listening room, along with your own ears will determine what is best.

The other issue is one of responsibility to follow through when you offer to buy or sell something. I buy a lot more than I sell. But that is a personal problem. I have had people drop out of sales, but my thinking is that if they don't pay me quickly then the sale was never really finalized.

I follow through with nearly everything I offer to buy. The only exceptions are when a question of mine to the seller is unanswered, or when shipping costs prove prohibitive. But my BT perspective is that I am dealing with a friend rather than a customer. That changes dynamics and expectations. I have the luxury of having AK as fun and not a business.
 
And you miss my point entirely. I said a plurality of folks here are not in the top 1%, or in the upper middle class, which leaves....the lower middle class and the poor. Please quote me the point where I stated "riff-raff." You won't find it. You choose to take it one way, and then ran with it. The amount of folks here who have to pass on deals all the time, because they don't have any extra money, and some who don't have any money. This is not about shaming people for their lack of economic wherewithal, this is about acknowledging that the condition exists...and it affects expressed buying commitments in a negative fashion. I never said a single word, nor cast any negative aspersion, about selling gear either, so quit making this bull up.

The truth is evident in the threads that populate these forums. The anti-cable lockdowns. The reverse bias complaints. The golden ear snubs. The take a great deal and screw the seller down another $20 or $50 responses. The thrift store pursuits. The dumpster dives. The people who take umbrage that their middle of the model line gear in the product line when the gear was new is now great(and now, yes, this is for you.) The fact that the single largest thread on the regular forums is about scores at thrifts. The first page of D&S having 5 out of 24 threads(excluding this one) touching on real higher end gear. When you get enough snapshots, it is obvious which way the site tilts. That is neither a negative nor a positive, nor condenscending - it is an observation.

There are 24K posts in the D&S thrift store thread, which exceeds the most viewed thread in the New Gear-Performance at 22K views. The moderators and ownership at AK have done everything they can to bolster the modern/new gear side of the forum, and to extend the focus of the site to higher end gear- but their bread and butter action is, and always will be, vintage and economically affordable gear.
 
You've missed the point of the original post completely. It's about buyer's ethics, not seller's elitism.

The point was that if you aren't sure you can or even want to to complete the deal, don't commit to it. It has nothing to do with the wealth of the buyer or the quality of the gear or what your audio society thinks about a Marantz 2230. If you're not willing or able to spend the money, don't tell the seller you are going to.
 
You have been one of the beaters who represent non-subscribers in negative terms.

I "have been". I'm pretty sure that's crap. I usually don't judge anyone unless I feel they have thrown down the gauntlet first. Show me a post where I was a "beater" before this one and I'll apologize.
 
You've missed the point of the original post completely. It's about buyer's ethics, not seller's elitism.

The point was that if you aren't sure you can or even want to to complete the deal, don't commit to it. It has nothing to do with the wealth of the buyer or the quality of the gear or what your audio society thinks about a Marantz 2230. If you're not willing or able to spend the money, don't tell the seller you are going to.
Here, here.
 
My experience selling to the general public for over 30 years has consistently been that those with the most to spare are usually the most difficult to get it out of. Those most able are the least willing to pay fair. There are exceptions, and they are few and far between.
 
My experience selling to the general public for over 30 years has consistently been that those with the most to spare are usually the most difficult to get it out of. Those most able are the least willing to pay fair. There are exceptions, and they are few and far between.

In large part, that's how they accumulated enough "to spare".
 
I guess I'm just stupid enough to LOVE my "mid fi" 2230. Thank you for saying what I chose (incorrectly in hindsight) to let go unsaid.

My 440 MLa is mediocre too. :rolleyes:

I am a fan of my 2240, too bad most of her lights are out but at least she can still bring forth the warm Marantz sound cleanly. I have had MUCH better equipment for the garage system but for some reason, that little 2240 just seems to rule the garage. I just wish she had a nice cabinet and though they are available, I am definitely on the poor side of membership here so I can't afford to have one made but I can sure enjoy the photos of others units that have them

Money is not everything, it's friendships created here that make the hobby enjoyable no matter what gear you run

As for gear transactions, an AK member was supposed to buy my Teac A-2300SD Dolby RTR months ago... however it is still sitting in my livingroom unpaid for
 
Mark, I said you are a beater because you beat people across the ears and head in public for not being subscribers. The word beater was used in the sense of being a person who tries to drum up business, and in your case, also beats on people. Pretty things who wander around in bars with prefilled shots of liquor are beaters or drummers. Beer reps/salesmen who stop into a bar for half an hour and buy the house a round are beer drummers. Folks who harangue others to become subscribers are...beaters.

I also never said anything about a seller(or the OP) being elitist, Absolon. Nor is DS2000 elitist for observing an increased incidence of buyers reneging here vs other forums. It is an observed condition. There is no driving urgency in any of my posts about elitism, or putting people down, or putting gear down. It is about recognizing that we are in troublesome economic times, with a lot of uncertainty. You couple these elements with varied income levels, people of varied age brackets, and varied buying habits, and you will be able to develop a buying model that can project niche markets, like the vintage stereo market, and the new/used record market.

Mark, plese point out again where I said "riff-raff." I didn't. The second time, I tried to point out that the plurality of folks here are neither wealthy nor upper middle class, which in America is poor. The first time I said poor directly. Neither was used in a negative connotation.

AS Bowtie pointed out, it often is harder to process a sale with someone who is wealthy, because they want the gear to be a perfect example, at a price and condition they want, with the exact set of knobs they want, etc. Someone lower on the ladder often merely wants what you have, and will be much happier after the purchase than the moneyed buyer. One of the biggest things I like about AK, for all the complaints and misgivings I also have, is the fact that many people are so grateful for what they do have, and what they have managed to stumble/find/buy into, and hearing the passion they have for a two, three, or four decade dream they finally have realized. The passion for good music, and gear that delivers that music, is one of the great unifiers we have here...and also the largest divider.

And my Edgarhorn Seismic subwoofer, affectionately called the Ziggurat, just left the garage after four different Audiokarma buyers backed out over a three year period. A friend who scraped together the money to buy the TAD mid drivers and the woofer enclosures when we first moved the estate, traded a surplus Sun Audio preamp for it, and is happier than a pig in warm mud he now has the complete set. holding a 5 foot tall, 300 pound subwoofer for three years for the right owner is good karma.
 
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I have found BT to be largely a discussion forum. Gear is offered at above EB selling prices in average condition in many cases, expensive gear at reasonable (or even very good) condition that won't ship (guilty here), and some bargains that will ship.

Usually only bargains that will ship and nice gear with a buyer near them sell.

I would have bought a lot of gear on this site and probably will buy more (the ST-70 is IMO a great piece and very fair price for example, but I'd be at least 3rd in line if he were willing to ship) but logistics gets in the way. I think that there are some people that see a great piece that they really want and probably can afford, send a PM (kind of like walking around with it in your shopping cart), then realize it's not realistic for some reason (logistics, budget, wife approval, etc.). and "put it back" by not buying. I think that this is rude. I have seen several pieces on BT that I put on my watch list so that I can think about it, ... those pieces sell before I make a decision (IMO the right way to do it, if I'm not quick enough to commit then I lose).

I've had good and bad experiences on CL, a lot of no-shows and as many things I've gone to buy that weren't as represented. Although BT hasn't sold much of anything for me yet (I'm typically not willing to ship, which is almost always a deal killer on BT) I've certainly had good experience with the few things I have bought and sold there.

I agree with the OP.

For the most part, all of us have access to paypal or other instant payment method and can pay within minutes. Committing to buy and expecting the seller to hold it for you until you get paid or can get over to see it is a courtesy from the seller, and should be repaid with the courtesy of buying as agreed-upon, no exceptions.

If you're selling, it is your decision whether to hold an item or show "sale pending" on it before being paid. Sometimes this doesn't work out (try this on CL, it can be frustrating). Part of the hobby I'm afraid.

Regarding forum demographics? Don't care, it's a great site and I enjoy being a part of it.

Last, I don't feel that my subscriber money went to a good cause, I'd rather hand it to a struggling mother digging in her purse for diaper money. Becoming a subscriber didn't change the number of banner and pop-up ads nor increase the loading speed due to these ads, the site is not depending on donations IMO.
 
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If one says "I'm interested" and asks some questions that's one thing. But, IMO, as soon as the buyer says "sold", "deal", "I'll take it.", etc., that should be the end of story, committment to complete the deal. There is always an exception possible, but exceptions should be pretty rare at that point.

I had a seller disappear on me recently. I thought we were nearly complete then I asked to confirm the tubes were included as the photo showed, and have not heard any more since. I sent a follow up a few days later but no reply. :dunno:
 
Well, based on statistics, the middle class is a dying breed and the elite is very limited in numbers. But the poor are growing! So if you want to do well, it would be wise to cater to the poor.

This is all very dry sarcasm, but has a grain of truth.

Not to worry though, because historically, when the gap between the haves and the have nots gets too large, there is a rebalancing. It has happened many times in history, and I don't expect it will stop as long as we are human.
 
Wow a bunch of stereotyping going on, but I'm not surprised as I see it everyday here all the while nobody really knows anything about the other.

Responsibility to a commitment is what is brought up here and it is disparaging when it falls to a common occurrence.

I don't do it but recently the closest I came to it was with a local AKer (friend), I didn't post sold on his listing but contacted him and he sent photos. We even talked about getting together, and talked about how we both had to much stuff and he was getting ready to move. Well in all the talking about having to much stuff and needing to sell things, I thought about it.

He had others interested in it and I just told him that after talking that it would be better if I didn't just buy it to add to more stuff I really didn't need as I'll be moving soon also.

In RSD threads I'v had people commit to records and I then bought them the copy they wanted just for them to back out sticking me with the record.

I'v also have had sellers post something because they needed money and bought and paid for it. Then have them refund my money because something came up and they didn't need to sell anymore.

Snow has it right but I just make a mental note as to who I'll deal with.
 
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