AT440MLa/b (or its Replacement) Conundrum...

[AnzacSonata]

Make sure the screw slots on the headshell are long enough for the Baerwald protractor alignment.

Going to have it pre-aligned via the online vendor I'm going with (most likely Needle Doctor), as they sell cart-and-shell packages that are ready to twist onto an arm and have tracking force set...

If any adjustments are required after that point, I'll worry about it then; the main issue was getting rid of (or cutting down on) severe IGD I'm experiencing (the jury is still out on whether this is damage caused by previous misuse on the second-hand LPs or by mistracking styli that may have carved up those inner grooves in past plays; what bothers me is that it occurs on a lot of BRAND NEW vinyl, as well...I'm hoping the 440 or its equivalent is the answer).

 

[KentTeffeteller]

I am not familiar with that particular arm, but it seems to me from what I've read that the problems don't lie in the design but in tolerance variations in production from sample to sample i.e. some come from the factory loose.

But as a matter of starting point, only linear tracking arms track with no alignment error. All other single point fixed type arms are only accurate twice across the entire record surface. There are maybe some exceptions like the swing type arms that compensate for error but even those still track along an arc and so distort in different ways even if they technically always approach the groove square to the groove walls.

Yes, I agree. Design is reasonably competent (with higher tolerances, and better tolerance parts, and careful quality control, the major necessities for making it work as intended). I would like to see Hanpin make a audiophile model armless version, and use better parts and tighter tolerances. This would be worth paying more for.

 

[AnzacSonata]

Yes, I agree. Design is reasonably competent (with higher tolerances, and better tolerance parts, and careful quality control, the major necessities for making it work as intended). I would like to see Hanpin make a audiophile model armless version, and use better parts and tighter tolerances. This would be worth paying more for.

Thank you for your thoughts, Kent; I do feel more comfortable about ordering the upgraded cart for this particular table and arm now.

 

[Balifly]

Going to have it pre-aligned via the online vendor I'm going with (most likely Needle Doctor), as they sell cart-and-shell packages that are ready to twist onto an arm and have tracking force set...

If any adjustments are required after that point, I'll worry about it then; the main issue was getting rid of (or cutting down on) severe IGD I'm experiencing (the jury is still out on whether this is damage caused by previous misuse on the second-hand LPs or by mistracking styli that may have carved up those inner grooves in past plays; what bothers me is that it occurs on a lot of BRAND NEW vinyl, as well...I'm hoping the 440 or its equivalent is the answer).

Okay, best of luck with your efforts.

 

[AnzacSonata]

Thanks.

 

[Tdogzthmn]

Another cart I had success with on my LP120 was the AT120E now the AT120Eb which was a noticeable step up from the AT95e.

From there I purchased the AT150mlx stylus which can be swapped onto the body of the AT120. By the time I got the 150mlx I had sold the LP120 and got myself a real Technics 1210 which was so much nicer than the Audio Technica clone.

 

[AnzacSonata]

Another cart I had success with on my LP120 was the AT120E now the AT120Eb which was a noticeable step up from the AT95e.

From there I purchased the AT150mlx stylus which can be swapped onto the body of the AT120. By the time I got the 150mlx I had sold the LP120 and got myself a real Technics 1210 which was so much nicer than the Audio Technica clone.

In what way was it "so much nicer" than the LP120?

 

[DesertTwang]

Thank you for this; more so than wondering if the 440 was "too much cartridge" for my deck's arm, it was a matter of wondering if IGD and tracing distortion could never be minimized BECAUSE of the 120's arm design, which I read all over the 'Net...

I'm not familiar with your turntable, so I apologize in advance in case my comment is irrelevant, but from what I understand, my Pioneer PL-540 TT also has an "s-shape" tonearm, and the ML440a tracks and sounds fantastic on that table at 1.4g VTF. I'm pretty happy. I should add that I have yet to experience IGD myself. My records sound great from beginning to end with that cartridge. For what it's worth, antiskate adjustments (whether set to 0 or 4 or in between) have not made any difference to my ears in how this cartridge sounds, which to me seems to suggest it may not be all too sensitive to AS.

 

[AnzacSonata]

I'm not familiar with your turntable, so I apologize in advance in case my comment is irrelevant, but from what I understand, my Pioneer PL-540 TT also has an "s-shape" tonearm, and the ML440a tracks and sounds fantastic on that table at 1.4g VTF. I'm pretty happy. I should add that I have yet to experience IGD myself. My records sound great from beginning to end with that cartridge.

Thank you very much; I hope I achieve the same kind of success with my arm and 440 combo -- I think the main thing I was trying to get at in this thread was whether this turntable's arm was constructed so poorly (not just because of its s-shaped arm) it simply COULDN'T trace without any kind of distortion towards the end of a vinyl side...more because of its tolerance and construction limitations (which is the rumor all over the online forum world, depending on where you look).

 

[Tdogzthmn]

In what way was it "so much nicer" than the LP120?

It’s nicer in just about every way.

Build quality of the Technics is far superior with quality engineering and materials used throughout. The precision and tolerances are also much better on the tonearm and cueing mechanism.

Not putting down the LP120, mine made some great music and it’s a great introductory turntable but once you get your hands on a 1200 its easy to see its a much more serious piece of gear.

 

[psemeraro]

I've spent time with a lot of Technics 1200s with loose arm bearings, and my observation is that IGD is not a function of loose bearings. We know that IGD is because of incorrect contact of the stylus with the groove. So... IGD tends to be the result of a bad/worn stylus, incorrect tracking force, and incorrect alignment. Better tracking cartridges will not show IGD even when they are mildly mis-aligned. Misalignment will show up as reduced separation, reduced image depth, or in severe cases, channel imbalance.

After readjusting the bearings on said Technics 1200s, what I observed was tighter/cleaner bass, and a more natural, less "bright" sound overall. In the case of a 1200 set up for scratching, loose arm bearings wreak havoc when the record gets whipped back and forth and leads to a much more unstable, skip prone experience for the DJ. Readjusting the bearings enables the cartridge suspension to deal with the side loads (as it was designed to do) while the arm stays in place properly.

Adjusting the Technics arm bearings is simple and only takes a few minutes, BUT... the outer locking screw sometimes freezes in place, and that can be a challenge to break loose. Once its loose it only takes a few seconds to adjust, test, lock down, retest, done.

The other killer is loose headshell sockets. As part of my "survival kit" I created a 90 degree bend jewelers screwdriver that fits under the arm so I could tighten the headshell socket screws in situ. The 1200 uses two teeny, tiny Phillips screws to hold the headshell socket to the tonearm. A strong sneeze and they will loosen. And a floppy headshell is an awful, terrible thing. Everything on a tonearm should be perfectly tight and perfectly friction free at the same time.

If you need to re-tighten the headshell locking screws, place a Popsicle stick on the headshell so you set the azimuth to center - there is some adjust-ability built in to the screw holes.

 

[octavius]

The LP120 is known to have anti-skate issues, such as it doesn't work very well. I know because I used to own one. IGD is just a fancy term for tracking problems near the end of the record. A fineline stylus certainly can help in this regard.

I currently use an AT440MLa body with an AT150Sa shibata stylus. Its tracking ability is awesome, as is the detail retrieval. This cartridge and stylus are mounted to a 2007 model Technics SL1200MKII, tracking at 1.6 grams.

I do have a fix for the LP120's skating issue......

Wayner

I´m using now same configuration with ATN150SA with great success. The sound is awesome if my mind do not fool me I like it more than AT440MLb

 

[AnzacSonata]

Thanks for all the additional replies, fellas; unfortunately, we were not able to get a replacement for my 120's 95e yet because of monetary issues, but I hope to get one soon.

 

[RichTassoni]

I Have a pioneer PL 516 and a AT 440mlb for 2 years now and it's a wonderful cartridge, I decided I wanted to try something different, almost bought the new mlb up grade 540 so I went with the the Ortofon 2m blue. With 1.5 Mv more the volume is greater and instruments really jump out. I think the mlb is more softer ,warmer cartridge so I have to say Im enjoying the difference of the Ortofon after owning AT cartridges all my life.

 

[AnzacSonata]

I'd like to respond to something psemerao said in this quote, which I didn't get an opportunity to do at earlier log-ins...

I've spent time with a lot of Technics 1200s with loose arm bearings, and my observation is that IGD is not a function of loose bearings. We know that IGD is because of incorrect contact of the stylus with the groove. So... IGD tends to be the result of a bad/worn stylus, incorrect tracking force, and incorrect alignment. Better tracking cartridges will not show IGD even when they are mildly mis-aligned. Misalignment will show up as reduced separation, reduced image depth, or in severe cases, channel imbalance.

Interestingly enough, what I am experiencing with my AT95e/AT-LP120 combo at the ends of sides is NOT "reduced image depth" or "channel imbalance"; I experience a complete drop in quality wherein the highs are squashed and "sibilant" and vocals are reduced to distorted messes...difficult to explain, but I do not detect any channel imbalance or anything else that suggests misalignment, leading me to conclude that it is the AT95's "fat elliptical" that's causing a lot of this tracking error at the inner grooves. This happens on nearly EVERY LP or 12-inch single I play through my system, unless the inner grooves aren't cut right to the dead wax/runout grooves -- this would seem to suggest that the 95's stylus just can't track those severely-packed grooves at the end.

Now, this occurs with a rather heavy tracking force on the 95 (somewhere around 2.35, measured and confirmed with a digital scale) and yet I still experience sibilant highs on many pieces of vinyl and severe IGD, even on new vinyl.

Of course, I won't be able to confirm what's going on here for sure until I can afford a better (preferably micro-line) stylus/cart, and see if my issues disappear with the better said pieces.

 

[AnzacSonata]

I Have a pioneer PL 516 and a AT 440mlb for 2 years now and it's a wonderful cartridge, I decided I wanted to try something different, almost bought the new mlb up grade 540 so I went with the the Ortofon 2m blue. With 1.5 Mv more the volume is greater and instruments really jump out. I think the mlb is more softer ,warmer cartridge so I have to say Im enjoying the difference of the Ortofon after owning AT cartridges all my life.

Thanks for the feedback, Rich; I do appreciate that the Ortofon is 1.5 Mv higher in output -- as I would be looking for that in a new cart, as well -- and would consider this alongside the AT replacement....is the 2m blue a line contact?

 

[Balifly]

Interestingly enough, what I am experiencing with my AT95e/AT-LP120 combo at the ends of sides is NOT "reduced image depth" or "channel imbalance"; I experience a complete drop in quality wherein the highs are squashed and "sibilant" and vocals are reduced to distorted messes...difficult to explain, but I do not detect any channel imbalance or anything else that suggests misalignment, leading me to conclude that it is the AT95's "fat elliptical" that's causing a lot of this tracking error at the inner grooves. This happens on nearly EVERY LP or 12-inch single I play through my system, unless the inner grooves aren't cut right to the dead wax/runout grooves -- this would seem to suggest that the 95's stylus just can't track those severely-packed grooves at the end.

Now, this occurs with a rather heavy tracking force on the 95 (somewhere around 2.35, measured and confirmed with a digital scale) and yet I still experience sibilant highs on many pieces of vinyl and severe IGD, even on new vinyl.

Of course, I won't be able to confirm what's going on here for sure until I can afford a better (preferably micro-line) stylus/cart, and see if my issues disappear with the better said pieces.

The stylus of the Audio Technica AT 95E can be upgrade to an hyper elliptical - HE stylus.

See the 710-HE at the bottom of the linked site - page:
http://thevoiceofmusic.com/catalog/...ameNeedles&MfgName=Audio+Technica&Categories=

 

[RichTassoni]

The stylus of the Audio Technica AT 95E can be upgrade to an hyper elliptical - HE stylus.

See the 710-HE at the bottom of the linked site - page:
http://thevoiceofmusic.com/catalog/...ameNeedles&MfgName=Audio+Technica&Categories=

The pioneer PL 516 I bought came with a AT 95 I think they run about 40.00 the Ortofon is 250.00 so there should be a difference, they call it a highly polished nude elepical. I know after about 8 hours of run time on it, it starts to open up and u can hear it. Most claimed 30 to 40 hours for break ins.

 

[AnzacSonata]

The stylus of the Audio Technica AT 95E can be upgrade to an hyper elliptical - HE stylus.

See the 710-HE at the bottom of the linked site - page:
http://thevoiceofmusic.com/catalog/...ameNeedles&MfgName=Audio+Technica&Categories=

Yes, I'm aware; I was also under the assumption that something like a new cart with the micro-line stylus tip -- like a 440 -- would be a better move....

Not correct?

 

[Balifly]

Yes, I'm aware; I was also under the assumption that something like a new cart with the micro-line stylus tip -- like a 440 -- would be a better move....

Not correct?

The Audio Technica AT 440 MLb cartridge is about $200.00 US.

The HE stylus for the Audio Technica AT 95E cartridge is about $53.00 US.

For sure the AT 440 MLx cartridge is consider a better engine than the AT 95xx cartridge.

The Micro line stylus is finer than the HE stylus.

Different price range for different users.