kvndoom
Ohmu
I doubt anyone else derived that from my statement, but ok.
Todays Speakers vs Vintage Speakers
- Thread starter Mark Davis
- Start date
Audiobro
Active Member
I agree. The quest is not to make sound that is pleasing, but to reveal the artists creation. Unfortunately we are mostly lead down false paths by manufacturers, we are lead to believe that their products will lead us to the prize. Sadly not all have the knowledge and desire to own 1/3 octave EQ's and real time analyzers to verify and quantify our choices of equipment.
twiiii
Lunatic Member
The first time I went to an Altec seminar on Equalization and the first time at a Syn-aud con school, the first thing I heard is you can't voice reflected sound. Only the direct sound. Now the direct sound will influence the reflected sound but if there is a surface improperly designed that is absorbing a group of frequencies or an opening with a room behind acting as an absorber, no matter how much boost you use you can't restore the the energy being lost in the room. Now if a speaker system has minor dips all you are going to do by increasing the energy to the driver is increase distortions. Fortunately most homeowners speakers predominate the reflected sound so room voicing does work in most cases. But if you have tried multiple speakers and have never gotten the transient in the bass and lower midrange you think you have heard else where, the issue maybe your listening space and not your sound system.
I can appreciate where the previous writer is coming from. Its the predominant way of thinking a sound system should be today, revealing every last detail. But when you go to live un-amplified concert, club or opera. You don't hear every last nuance . The highs are being rolled off and the bass is always manipulated by the acoustics of the room. recording engineers don't pull their mics away to get a correct authentic recording or if they do they use mics with elevated high ends to get that added clarity most seem to want now days. I don't want to hear TONY BENNET or Lady Gaga breathing while singing duet. Do you hear miles Davis or Urbie Green slide or valve noise during solos. Does Clarke Terry sound like he is sitting in your lap? No way. And this over emphasizing to capture the air around an instrument is a bunch of hog wash. If you listened to Isaac Stern playing his violin from on stage it would sound like he was using a fine hack saw blade rather than a bow with horse hair. I just want the natural sound of the performance with out all the nob twiddling and manipulations during a performance. Give me the keep it simple method, then if I want speakers to reproduce every last twitch or foot tap thats my choice. Thats why I have graphic tone controls at my disposal. Maybe Deutche Grammophone recordings need a little help below 50HZ. Maybe Some Telarc recordings need a touchup in the highest octave. Maybe Pearlman's violin is to strident. Some engineers really don't recognize the big warm smooth sound of a Strad, They also don't recognize the Difference between Stein way, Baldwin and Bosendofer pianos. One of Oscar Petersons secrets is he plays a big Bosendorfer Piano. So much more mellow than a Steinway. How many of you have numerous Chandos recordings? Some times the mic to far away even for my taste. If I want to remember what it was like to perform in an orchestra or wind symphony, I pull out North Texas University, President's Own Marine Band, or Kunzel Symphonic selections. When I want to hear Big Band or Swing Band I pull out Reprise or Command recordings with out the ping pong. Basie on Command is quite spectacular. For techno sound recordings I am a Sheffield LP guy. Thats what a tube recording should sound like. I know what its like to stand on a podium and hear 40 to 70 musicians going at full boar. Also no what the sound is like from the front row 20 th row and on different balconies. I don't want to hear the podium or Ist row sound. Give me some space.
I can appreciate where the previous writer is coming from. Its the predominant way of thinking a sound system should be today, revealing every last detail. But when you go to live un-amplified concert, club or opera. You don't hear every last nuance . The highs are being rolled off and the bass is always manipulated by the acoustics of the room. recording engineers don't pull their mics away to get a correct authentic recording or if they do they use mics with elevated high ends to get that added clarity most seem to want now days. I don't want to hear TONY BENNET or Lady Gaga breathing while singing duet. Do you hear miles Davis or Urbie Green slide or valve noise during solos. Does Clarke Terry sound like he is sitting in your lap? No way. And this over emphasizing to capture the air around an instrument is a bunch of hog wash. If you listened to Isaac Stern playing his violin from on stage it would sound like he was using a fine hack saw blade rather than a bow with horse hair. I just want the natural sound of the performance with out all the nob twiddling and manipulations during a performance. Give me the keep it simple method, then if I want speakers to reproduce every last twitch or foot tap thats my choice. Thats why I have graphic tone controls at my disposal. Maybe Deutche Grammophone recordings need a little help below 50HZ. Maybe Some Telarc recordings need a touchup in the highest octave. Maybe Pearlman's violin is to strident. Some engineers really don't recognize the big warm smooth sound of a Strad, They also don't recognize the Difference between Stein way, Baldwin and Bosendofer pianos. One of Oscar Petersons secrets is he plays a big Bosendorfer Piano. So much more mellow than a Steinway. How many of you have numerous Chandos recordings? Some times the mic to far away even for my taste. If I want to remember what it was like to perform in an orchestra or wind symphony, I pull out North Texas University, President's Own Marine Band, or Kunzel Symphonic selections. When I want to hear Big Band or Swing Band I pull out Reprise or Command recordings with out the ping pong. Basie on Command is quite spectacular. For techno sound recordings I am a Sheffield LP guy. Thats what a tube recording should sound like. I know what its like to stand on a podium and hear 40 to 70 musicians going at full boar. Also no what the sound is like from the front row 20 th row and on different balconies. I don't want to hear the podium or Ist row sound. Give me some space.
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z-adamson
Addicted Member
From this I gather that you think it is crazy that they sell for more today than 20 years ago.
I thought it was pretty clear.
z-adamson
Addicted Member
Out of curiosity and don't take this the wrong way.....
Why have you chosen to run gear that is so much more capable than your space and speakers will allow?
Why not run gear that is more in line with what your speakers and space are capable of?
I mentioned speaker can be a issue within a space not the equipment prior to the speakers. However given a better space and add some really high end speaker the whole system could sound a lot better. I'm also a firm believer of, crap in crap out, so starting with the best I can get for the front end, preamp and power amps will always be a plus in any system. This will help any speaker do well as does having power amps that can handle most home speakers.
I also rent and don't own the house I'm in, so who knows what speakers will be right in the next location. That said the speakers I have are not slouches either, they are fine speakers.
Sound Dragon
Yawns and sets his couch on fire!
Shoot......I have done this once or twice in my journey.
musichal
poet emeritus
Well, me too... but not deliberately.
Sharpstik
Stuck in the 70's
Huh?
About a year ago I went looking for a pair of floor models resembling my restored KLH 6, OLA' s and Optimus 5, among others. I was willing to try a pair, any pair, modern, if I could locate them. And I couldn't. Bob and Ron's around here, you had to order a 3 way with a 12 inch.They were over a thousand dollars. For ONE.
I refuse to listen to anything less than a 10 inch too.
.Sorry. Multiple small ones don't do it for me.
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Another thing to point out is that cheap quality has come a loooong way. My Fisher DS 177’s, although good performers, are assembled with the cheapest possible components. Decent woofers thrown into a light sawdust cabinet, with no stuffing and some holes punched in for “ports”. Original MSRP? Per an old newspaper ad I found, $199.95 in 1983 dollars, or roughly $500 today. Granted, it was being “marked down” to $99.95, but that’s still ~$250 today. Take a gander and lend an ear to any $250 or $500 floorstanders of your choice Yeah, they won’t appeal to meatheads and size queens looking for 12” of thigh slapping, chest pumping nuclear brain damage, but I’m sure they’ll beat the Fishers for cleanliness and sonic accuracy, with a hearty kick to the bass. Point is, today's budget audiophile is almost spoiled for choice.
Pioneered
Well-Known Member
New speakers although they may be better then what I have, look NEW, while my old speakers look old and, match my equipment and I like there sound.
Besides if I heard new ones it might certainly spoil me and then I'd have something else I really wanted I couldn't afford. I think just being pleased with what
you have is cheaper in the long run but, corporate America doesn't want that.................do they? Yes, I understand it's just not that but, major improvements
to this technology. And it's easy for me to reject the NEW and Improved because I live in the past and will stay there. Just one more reason I'm pretty much
a hermit.
Besides if I heard new ones it might certainly spoil me and then I'd have something else I really wanted I couldn't afford. I think just being pleased with what
you have is cheaper in the long run but, corporate America doesn't want that.................do they? Yes, I understand it's just not that but, major improvements
to this technology. And it's easy for me to reject the NEW and Improved because I live in the past and will stay there. Just one more reason I'm pretty much
a hermit.
I have always looked at speakers as musical instruments. In the past when speakers were designed and built by particular people each speaker had “That” sound. AR, Bozac, Klipsch, KLH, Warfedale, etc. Right now I am experiencing this with my newly restored Warfedale W35’s. I have owned and listened to a lot of speakers over the years but there is nothing that sound like these W35’s. They sound like a Warfedale. On the other hand I have a pair of modern bookshelf speakers the Polk Audio RTi A3’s fantastic speakers. They sound very good, they sound very good, that is really all you can say about them. I very much like them but they don’t have that whatever it is the W35’s have. Right now I am listening to WQXR, all I can say is with the W35’s it sounds just right.
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All of the talk about direct reflected sound, room acoustics, and what not. There is only one way to put you in the room were the music you are listening was played, binaural recording, and seal out the world headphones. The first time you listen to a binaural recording it is jaw dropping. Close your eyes and you are there. No speaker system no matter how much you spend can do this. SoundCloud has a lot of Binaural postings
https://soundcloud.com/binauralairwaves/sets/cuddle-magic-intimate-vermont
https://soundcloud.com/binauralairwaves/sets/cuddle-magic-intimate-vermont
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T
I understand your meaning. The club recording link is, so are the environmental recordings but there is a lot of new age empower your chakra 3rd eye stuff that really isn’t.
This is for real.
I'm moving towards new(er) electronics, but still stuck on my 1980's-1990's KEF 107 speakers. I have heard some say they've heard $250k speakers that don't sound as natural as the KEF's. Not saying I'll agree with that...I've never heard any $250k speakers (around $30k speakers are the top level I've heard)...but I will say I'm in no hurry to "upgrade" from them. I keep my eye out, if a good deal comes along for say some KEF 207's or some KEF Blades or Wilsons or Magico or anything of that ilk, sure, I'll consider the upgrade. So far, I've found the biggest gains in upgrading my electronics...if nothing else, for reliability. Don't get me wrong, old tube units can sound phenomenal...I just don't have the skills to repair them...and every one I've owned has needed repair, even "restored" units...
This has been discussed literally a million times, but "good is good" regardless of age. Just depends on your tastes...sound, aesthetics, reliability vs restorability, etc.
This has been discussed literally a million times, but "good is good" regardless of age. Just depends on your tastes...sound, aesthetics, reliability vs restorability, etc.
The Polk Monitor 10B on paper at least has an impressive bottom end for such a speaker and indeed it can get down there. It has a passive 10” radiator to do part of that. What I noticed is below a certain point the passive radiator looses steam, and control. It was a revelation when I hooked up the Klipsch RW-12II subwoofer to the system and set with LFE so everything below 60Hz went to the Klipsch. The 10B’s acted like they were liberated. The 10B’s are able to operate in their sweet range. I am shortly going to refurbish these 10B’s again with Mundorf M-Cap’s, it now has Axon True Cap’s and Sonicap Gen I’s. I am not looking for a magical transformation in sound but there seems to be some issues with the present crossovers.
Music hasn't fundamentally changed over the years, but other factors have:
1. Designers have learned considerably more about ideal driver, crossover and cabinet design. Just look at the evolution of products by longstanding designers and companies.
2. Materials technology available today was unheard of decades ago making previously esoteric designs practical and more affordable.
3. Market preference has switched to narrower profiles to better fit into home decorum. The previously common 25"x14" "bookshelf" form factor is largely absent today.
4. Greater reliance on the use of separate subwoofers allowing for more compact "mains" using smaller woofers (often in multiples)
The 15 year old audiophile in me enjoys re-experiencing the Advents in the garage. The old guy music lover prefers the Sound Lab stats using the latest panels and backplates.
1. Designers have learned considerably more about ideal driver, crossover and cabinet design. Just look at the evolution of products by longstanding designers and companies.
2. Materials technology available today was unheard of decades ago making previously esoteric designs practical and more affordable.
3. Market preference has switched to narrower profiles to better fit into home decorum. The previously common 25"x14" "bookshelf" form factor is largely absent today.
4. Greater reliance on the use of separate subwoofers allowing for more compact "mains" using smaller woofers (often in multiples)
The 15 year old audiophile in me enjoys re-experiencing the Advents in the garage. The old guy music lover prefers the Sound Lab stats using the latest panels and backplates.
