Just a bad master?

archibael

KnowsEnoughToBeDangerous
So on getting back into the hobby again, I was getting records with my wife and she chose Lionel Richie's debut solo album. Without arguing the merits of the album itself-- I personally think it's pretty good-- I noticed on first play that at least one of the (inner) tracks was pretty rough in specific sections, distorted all to heck. Even my wife could hear it. ;)

I figured it was evidence of my system being a work in progress, and that it could have been the cartridge or the tracking force being off or anti-skate or any number of other things... So when I went a-buying for a new turntable, I actually brought the record along to use as a test track. To my surprise, every table I tried it in sounded just as bad on that track: the Sansui I bought, a Marantz, a Dual belt drive model, and the seller's Pioneer. It was just the record atter all, and my system at home was not as bad as I'd believed!

Fast forward to today... I'm in a record shop and I find a copy of the same album in the racks, and the price is right. What the heck? I figure. It's cheap, and the one I have at home is obviously flawed.

I get home with the thing, throw it in the system... and it sounds exactly the same as the other one; distorted in the exact same parts!

So I'm left assuming that the recording is either a) really challenging for various tables to play correctly or b) mastered with significant distortion.

Have any of you encountered this situation before-- a record that just seems to be bad on every table you play it on, even on multiple separate copies of itself?
 
I'm a-gonna have to head down to the local vinyl thrift shop, and score me a Lionel Ritchie debut album, and check out this distortion phenomenon myself.

But my gut tells me it might likely be your cartridge alignment and anti-skating set up.
 
But my gut tells me it might likely be your cartridge alignment and anti-skating set up.

I'll have to respectfully disagree on this one. The OP has tried the same album on multiple TT/cart set-ups and hears the same "flaws"--it is highly unlikely that all of those different rigs were equally/similarly out of spec.

I would add to the list of potential problems "record wear/care", but the OP has also pretty much eliminated that as a factor by purchasing another copy of the same record and hearing the same "flaws".

I would be inclined to blame it on the pressing itself. I have seen/heard entire pressing runs that have all been slightly off-center, or have a common flaw in the same track on every album pressed. That album was released during the period of "we've got a hit on our hands, so crank 'em out fellas", so QC may have taken a back-seat to total production.
 
Yes, this has happened to me.

The truth is, while we like to think that vintage vinyl was mastered with utmost care and by absolute pros in actuality it was done pretty sloppily many times. Especially in the case of an album like Lionel's, mastering and plating and pressing could have been farmed out to many different facilities in order to meet the demand. As a result, there couldn't be the kind of quality control one would want because they were crankin' 'em out as quick and dirty as possible.

Could have been a cutter head that was having an off day. Or a worn cutting stylus that should have been swapped out. Or the copy of the master tape that was used had the distortion "built-in" to it due to sloppy tape duplication.

Since you have two copies, one thing you should do is check the matrix info in the dead wax area. I have a hunch you will find they are identical, or at least from the same facility

In the past I've talked about buying an album with flaws in the very same places. And then not too long ago being given the opportunity to play back metal mothers and stampers as part of my job, and finding bad surface noise and other flaws we think of as pressing issues baked into the metal work itself. It was very eye opening.
 
I'm a-gonna have to head down to the local vinyl thrift shop, and score me a Lionel Ritchie debut album, and check out this distortion phenomenon myself.

You don't have to go that far, but if you do, the track is My Love and the distortion is really bad on the second chorus on the left channel, when the background singers join at higher volume.

There were hissy sibilants as well on the first table, but that went away on other TTs so I absolutely ascribe that to the machine.
 
You don't have to go that far, but if you do, the track is My Love and the distortion is really bad on the second chorus, when the background singers join at higher volume.

Be interesting to listen to an alternate source (other than vinyl) to hear if the distortion is present--maybe a CD or streaming. It could be all the way up the chain to the original master recording.
 
Be interesting to listen to an alternate source (other than vinyl) to hear if the distortion is present--maybe a CD or streaming. It could be all the way up the chain to the original master recording.

I do in fact have a copy on CD, and intend to check it out, but it's from a compilation album and may have either been a different master or remastered if a vaguely competent engineer noticed.
 
Since you have two copies, one thing you should do is check the matrix info in the dead wax area. I have a hunch you will find they are identical, or at least from the same facility

This is a fascinating idea, and would actually point to a potential way to avoid the issue: if I encounter another copy, check the dead wax for a different facility before purchase. There was actually yet another copy present, and for $3 I would love to do the experiment.
 
My guess is a bad pressing. I have a couple of albums that look near mint but yet sound like crap on 3 different well setup TTs. One Bonnie Raitte album sounds like bad inner groove distortion from start to finish on both sides, I like the material on it but it's unlistenable for me. That reminds me that it's time to cull some of my collection.
 
Have any of you encountered this situation before-- a record that just seems to be bad on every table you play it on, even on multiple separate copies of itself?
Yes
We have to remember tracks are just that, a bunch of individual recordings and then put together as a album. Sometimes a song is just a bitch for the mastering lab to get as good as all the other songs and it can stand out on a record. Then if they take it and put it in the challenged area of a record compounds the issues.
 
We have to remember tracks are just that, a bunch of individual recordings and then put together as a album. Sometimes a song is just a bitch for the mastering lab to get as good as all the other songs and it can stand out on a record.

This is so true, especially with albums that were recorded in several different studios with several different mastering engineers and different recording equipment during their development.

This is even worse (more apparent) in "Greatest Hits" or "Anthology" compilations. Not only are you dealing with different studios and mastering engineers, you are dealing with the progression of recording technology over decades, as well as the evolution of the artists themselves. With bands, you may have to factor in multiple line-up changes as well, so track XX may be worlds away from track YY on many levels.
 
How does one decode the matrix info?

Both disks have the record ID number that's on the label (6007) and the side A/B info, I understand those.

After that it's a bit mysterious... I'm assuming something in there is facility and/or tool.

One was 15C on the side in question, the other was 15E, both were 15C on the B side. Both were "ZMA", and one had, if I'm reading it correctly with these crappy eyes, "BMV" scrawled after that (the other did not).

Neat stuff to learn about.
 
I would vote for poor mastering for vinyl. I listened to the digital version on iTunes and do not detect the mentioned distortion on that track. The studio original is likely mastered just fine, it is simply a matter of the process engineer not optimizing for the levels and position of this track on the lp. It's not that unusual (esp. with compilations) and while some set ups can handle it better, such is life with the vinyl medium and it's limitations.
They recently (Dec. 2017) remastered this and a couple other Richie albums specifically for vinyl if you care to find them: https://www.udiscovermusic.com/news/three-landmark-lionel-richie-albums-vinyl-release/ I'm assuming this in not the one you have since it sounded like you were buying used ($3).
 
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I would vote for poor mastering for vinyl. I listened to the digital version on iTunes and do not detect the mentioned distortion on that track. The studio original is likely mastered just fine, it is simply a matter of the process engineer not optimizing for the levels and position of this track on the lp. It's not that unusual (esp. with compilations) and while some set ups can handle it better, such is life with the vinyl medium and it's limitations.
They recently (Dec. 2017) remastered this and a couple other Richie albums specifically for vinyl if you care to find them: https://www.udiscovermusic.com/news/three-landmark-lionel-richie-albums-vinyl-release/ I'm assuming this in not the one you have since it sounded like you were buying used ($3).

Thanks for the info, phantomrebel! I might buy a remastered version... but mostly I was looking for reassurance from someone that I'm not crazy. Or at least not about this.

The fact that you mentioned "levels" actually makes me think about why the distortion bothered me so much... if I were to compare it to anything, it's the sound of clipping.
 
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Levels can mean many things, including compression. Going by the playlist, that album isn't that long so grooves shouldn't be too constrained. Not particularly difficult music either (I read a vinyl engineer say he was presented an album by Skrillex, and deemed it uncuttable) so who knows why they didn't get it right, but the track position is not ideal.
 
My guess is a bad pressing. I have a couple of albums that look near mint but yet sound like crap on 3 different well setup TTs. One Bonnie Raitte album sounds like bad inner groove distortion from start to finish on both sides, I like the material on it but it's unlistenable for me. That reminds me that it's time to cull some of my collection.
55Redneck, I dig your avatar. My dad had a '55 210 post. I loved that car, especially those classic tail lights.
He traded it in, 1961, for a Renault Dauphine.
Just to keep it on thread, I vote for bad mastering. My first copy of the New York Dolls Too Much Too Soon sounded flat and dull. The second copy was mastered by Gilbert Kong, sounds like a different record altogether.
 
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55Redneck, I dig your avatar. My dad had a '55 210 post. I loved that car, especially those classic tail lights.
He traded it in, 1961, for a Renault Dauphine.
Just to keep it on thread, I vote for bad mastering. My first copy of the New York Dolls Too Much Too Soon sounded flat and dull. The second copy was mastered by Gilbert Kong, sounds like a different record altogether.
Thanks OD55, mine was a MAJOR project that I never got to finish so I sold it to a local buddy 10 years ago and he has yet to get it on the road, but oh my God to trade it in on a Renault Dauphine, oh for shame. ;)
 
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