Looking for bright-sounding, clinical-sounding power amp for my B&W.

[Kreshna]

Yamaha AV receivers are often stereotyped as bright, transparent, and clinical, and it seems my RX-V663 is no exception. In fact, when paired with JBL 120Ti --titanium dome tweeters, the system sounds so transparent and clinical, without any attempt to make bad recordings sound good. As such, it tends to cause listening fatigue in the long run, especially with lesser source materials

However, when the Yamaha RX-V663 was used to drive Bowers & Wilkins DM302s, the system sounds very sweet, very organic, with such airy midrange that can be listened for hours. A friend told me that B&W "house sound" is indeed warm and sweet, which seems to stack very well with otherwise merciless Yamaha RX-V663. An example is Flyin' Away by Mo' Horizons, which sounds very organic on Yamaha RX-V663/B&W DM302s combo.

The only problem with the Yammie is it doesn't have enough juice to drive the demanding DM302s, whose impedance drops to 3 ohms at certain frequency range. The system often distorts at loud volumes, and I merely used two channels. I don't want to imagine what would happen if I used it for 5.1.

Then I added a Rotel RB-985 power amplifier to the audio chain, "demoting" the Yamaha AVR to preamp duty. The system sounds more effortless, more powerful, and definitely punchier. However, it loses its "organic-ness" somewhat, and it also tends to have shouty midrange with certain materials.

I read many times that Rotel power amplifiers tend to sound warm --the warm side of the neutral, said the reviewers. So I suspect B&W DM302's warmth stacks with Rotel RB-985's warmth, causing midrange overdose that can be shouty sometimes. My suspicion is confirmed after replacing the B&Ws with JBL L20Ts (titanium dome tweeter). The brighter-sounding L20Ts sound really nice and sweet when driven by the warm-sounding Rotel RB-985, without any hint of midrange shoutiness.

As such, it seems the warm-sounding B&W DM302s sound better when driven by bright, transparent, clinical-sounding amplifier like Yamaha RX-V663 AVR. The only problem with the Yammie is it distorts at louder volume, indicating lack of juice to drive the demanding B&W (AVR power rating tends to be exaggerated anyway).

So which 5 channel power amp should I choose to power B&W DM302s? Which amps whose sound is similar to that of Yamaha RX-V663? I guess the most obvious answer is Bryston, so something like 5B SST (3 channel) or 9B SST (5 channel) should fit my purpose. However, Brystons do not come up on ebay very often. B&Ks appear on ebay quite often, but reviews say they're warm-sounding. How about Emotiva or Adcom?

Or how about pro amps like Behringer or Crown?

 

[fredgarvin]

Krell perhaps. I do hesitate to call any brand uniformally as bright or warm. There is often differences between models.

 

[Roboturner91]

Do you absolutely *have* to have HDMI capability?

If the answer is no, and you're happy with the Yamaha but you just wish it had more power, go find you one of these:

 

[SoCal Sam]

Do you absolutely *have* to have HDMI capability?

If the answer is no, and you're happy with the Yamaha but you just wish it had more power, go find you one of these:

+1.

 

[Kreshna]

Do you absolutely *have* to have HDMI capability?

If the answer is no, and you're happy with the Yamaha but you just wish it had more power, go find you one of these:

I could connect the RX-V663's pre-outs to ths RX-V1's multichannel ins, using the RX-V1 as power amp only. But wouldn't I be stacking volume controls, then? Is it a bad thing to do?

 

[twiiii]

I agree with Krell, and Threshold can be on the bright side. too. B&W speakers, especially the Matrix versions are bright too. I don't understand why so many people want ultimate clarity. If you want that by a pair of electrostatic headphones so room acoustics don't compromise the signal. Then you will get highs with out fatigue un-compromised by room acoustics. Plus, you don't need big amplifiers. Another suggestion is that you make sure the response below 400 Hz is well controlled without peaks or distortion. The frequencies below 400 Hz is where the most power full instruments fundamentals lie and will mask the details your after. Turn your bass down 4 db might allow the clarity you are after. But the correct way is to find mini DSP and FFT analyzer and correct the response of your system.

 

[Kreshna]

B&W speakers, especially the Matrix versions are bright too.

Huh? This is the first time I heard B&W being described as 'bright'. When driven by the bright-sounding, analytical-sounding Yamaha RX-V663, the B&W DM302s sound sweet, warm, and organic, so I thought the warmth and sweetness came from the speaker's side. A friend of mine also said that such warmth and sweetness is part of the typical B&W "house sound." As for the Yamaha RX-V663 itself, it is such a bright and clinical amp that gives me "too much clarity" (and the resulting fatigue) when paired with equally bright JBL 120Tis (titanium dome tweeter).

That what makes me believe the B&Ws are such warm and sweet loudspeakers --B&W "house sound," as my friend told me.

On the other hand, Rotel amps are often described as "on the warm side of the neutral." And indeed, when driving the bright-sounding JBL L20Ts (titanium dome tweeter), the system sounds sweet, warm, and organic.

When the supposedly sweet Rotel RB-985 drives the supposedly sweet B&W DM302, the system sounds sweeter, thicker, and meatier. But it also sounds shouty sometimes, and that's why I wonder whether a bright amplifier would make the B&Ws sound better --just like the Yamaha RX-V663 did.

 

[punprankster]

My B&W 705s and 703s sounded bright to me, especially when paired with my Kenwood KA-9100. Sounded even brighter when I used the 9100 as a preamp and hooked it up to my Rotel RSX-1067 so I stopped using the combination.
I've read somewhere that it might be because of the 7 series' aluminum tweeters. I tend to agree, as some have commented that their fabric domed ones don't sound that way at all but I haven't heard any other B&Ws so I really can't tell.

 

[soundmig]

B&W's warm and sweet? No way .... very detailed and "bright" sounding speakers. I've heard many of their models (repaired a few too) including several different 800 series speakers and I don't recall any B&W speaker sounding warm or sweet.

 

[slimecity]

I had a pair of DM somethings back in the day with metal dome tweeters that made every piece of music sound like eggs frying. I never went back to B&W after that....

B&W's "bright sounding?" - hell yes, in my experience anyway

 

[Kreshna]

My B&W 705s and 703s sounded bright to me, especially when paired with my Kenwood KA-9100. Sounded even brighter when I used the 9100 as a preamp and hooked it up to my Rotel RSX-1067 so I stopped using the combination.
I've read somewhere that it might be because of the 7 series' aluminum tweeters. I tend to agree, as some have commented that their fabric domed ones don't sound that way at all but I haven't heard any other B&Ws so I really can't tell.

I see. Well my B&W DM302s sound warm and sweet --perhaps too sweet that they don't have enough slam and punch. However, among the amplifiers I own, only the Yamaha RX-V663 could bring out such sound.

Anyway, this is B&W's house sound according to Headphone Zone:

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In the world of 2.0 Audio, there are certain brands that have been around for decades and contributed a lot to the development of Stereo Audio, Bowers & Wilkins is one of those brands. As a result of being around for so long and the effort of doing what they do best, better than anybody else, these brands develop a “House Sound” and B&W is no stranger to such a phenomenon. By “House Sound” I simply mean a certain sound signature that can be heard across various products of a brand, so much so that even the listeners identify the sound signature with the brand without even knowing the speakers they are listening to.

The House Sound that Bowers & Wilkins has developed over the years is a pleasing Mid focused signature with a relaxed bass response and an airy and relaxed top end. Making their speakers ideal pairings for some slow jazz and vocal heavy music and highly favoured by the mainstream market who are not seeking absolute resolution.

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Well the description above matches the sound of B&W DM302s when driven by Yamaha RX-V663 receiver: relaxed bass, very sweet midrange, and quite airy mids and highs. The only weakness of the RX-V663 is that it doesn't have enough juice, while the DM302s have impedance dips at certain frequency ranges. And I haven't even used multichannel yet; only two channel in Pure Direct stereo mode.

B&W DM 302 impedance curve.

It seems I need a high current 5 channel amplifier, but with similar sound characteristics to the Yamaha RX-V663, which I believe to be bright.

How about Adcom GTA 7400?

 

[mjw21a]

I've always found B&W speakers to be warm and midrangey. I grew up around dad's B&W DM16 speakers paired with a Denon PMA-777 integrated amp. Lovely sound.

Dad's now running some B&W 802 D3's paired with a Rotel power amp (can't remember the preamp) and I'd say they're neutral leaning towards warmth. I'd never call them bright.

 

[bobins08]

This generalizing manufacturer brands as warm, bright, etc, is not a science. We all hear different, the room is a factor, the source is a factor, component matching is a factor, etc.

My B&W 685’s have a metal tweeter. They can be on the bright side to me.
My B&W DM 6’s have a silk dome tweeter, not bright at all.

 

[Dazaa]

A Yamaha PC series power amp will give you exactly what you want. I used my pc2602 with DM604's for a a few years before upgrading to the Wilsons, they were a perfect match.

 

[hiFi DAD]

The only amp that I’ve had, and paired to my 302’s, that I considered bright would be the Carver m-200t. This combo worked decent but it was not ideal (at least for my tastes). The best Amp i have heard with the 302’s is the Creek 4240 followed closely by the Fisher 800c.

 

[crispycircuit]

Adcom is bright and a solid amp

 

[twiiii]

Lets discus B&W speakers 3 graphs are of B&W 805, 802 and 702, the Flatter graph is of a Magico S5 MK II. You can't tell me B&W are mild and subdued. A friend of mine who is a B&W dealers describes B&W sound as spitting, and I have to agree. There are some that worse. Some Klipsch, JBL, Mcintosh, are all bright to very bright. Snell's speakers are smooth similar to Magico as our most of Wilsons. The top diagram is the S5, the next is 702, then 805, and 802 in B&W.

 

[Silentnet]

Nelson Pass designs tend to have the signature you're looking for, as I understand. Adcom GFA-555, Threshold, Nakamichi Stasis designs, Pass Labs.

 

[Superampman]

If you're going to use descriptors like "bright" and "clinical", then "transparent" doesn't belong. However, detailed does.
I recall the original B&W 801 sounding very transparent. Very detailed but not bright. The DM7s were very similar as were the 802s.

Bright and clinical= Technics

 

[Roboturner91]

My experience with B&Ws is also mostly that they are warmer than neutral. The DM6 I auditioned a while back sounded more "clinical" than the DM series but I wouldn't call it "bright."

The Polk Monitors in my home theater setup, now those are bright.