Power cord question

C'mon, AC cords affecting sound? :crazy: Never heard of it.

Never had this subject pop up before that I could find. It's going to be an interesting thread. :lurk:

If it's entertainment you want . . . Over at AA (Audio Asylum) they have a whole forum devoted to Cables. Certain rules apply - you must be a registered inmate to post there and it has been designated a DBT (Double Blind Testing) Free Zone. That means you cannot discuss or even mention DBT, pro or con, at all :deal:. Then there's also the Tweakers' Asylum and the Isolation Wardo_O. Never a dull moment.

Hope you have lots of :lurk:
 
Yes, power cords do affect the sound often, for better or worse as you have found. There are plenty of folks that have developed some expertise in them, I only know from trial and error. As in any cable, materials, connectors and construction geometries etc. all play a role. One thing that is important- don't mistakenly think of the power cable as an extension of the AC lines but rather as leads of the power transformer in your equipment. Obviously the properties of the leads effect the sound.

Certainly been my experience. I found thicker cables with chunky connectors gave a blacker background. They were $25 cables so nothing over the top. Someone brought some expensive power leads over and I couldn't accurately tell the difference though they were able to. I had a similar experience with better USB cables for my DAC despite it being a digital connection. All up though RCA lead and speaker wire choices impact the sound signature more. Not all is as clear as it would seem. You just have to try things and see if it works for you
 
Should be easy to actually test: Hook a scope to the power inside the amp (i.e. power switch or transformer. You can try Hot and Nuetral, but obviously the scope ground is connected to the chassis, not across the AC). Zoom in enough to check for audio riding on the AC waveform (amp playing audio, and well cranked up). You need to zoom in enough so that the very top nearly horizontal part of a 60Hz peek takes up the whole screen. Scope will look like a big sad face. Change to the the fancy cord and repeat. Also look to see if the "hash" looks any different with the amp idling.

Possible results:
1. There will be a difference you can see -- it's not just your immagination.
2. Can't see any difference --Your imagination is better than your o'scope.
 
I have been trying this thicker shorter power cord on my modern tube amp for a week now and just switched back to the original power cord and the original really does sound much better. I still think the power cord is considered in the design of some amps.
 
Certainly been my experience. I found thicker cables with chunky connectors gave a blacker background. They were $25 cables so nothing over the top. Someone brought some expensive power leads over and I couldn't accurately tell the difference though they were able to. I had a similar experience with better USB cables for my DAC despite it being a digital connection. All up though RCA lead and speaker wire choices impact the sound signature more. Not all is as clear as it would seem. You just have to try things and see if it works for you
I think IC cables have had the most easily detected differences in my systems. Usually it's that one sounds rolled off compared to another. When i swapped power cables on my tube amp there was a slight difference in the soundstage width. Not dramatic at all. I've never tried an expensive cable.
 
On topic, but slightly different question:

Both of the amps I recently acquired have really thin and aged 2 wire AC power cords, terminating in those little 2 prong right-angle plugs of the time.

What is the groups recommendation on replacing them with modern, grounded line cords? I would drill out the chassis for a larger Heyco (strain relief), and wire the center (green) wire to a good new or existing ground lug directly on the inside of chassis.

Good safety enhancement?

Good way to create a ground loop when aslo connecting to a grounded input source?

Possibility of stressing the power transformer, or something else by "forcing" the chassis to a ground point? (i.e. possibility of changing the current flow between chassis and the neutral AC line)
 
My opinion to the ground from the wall is to have what I call a house ground and have that go to the amp ground. It can be as simple as 2 - uf4007's tied together opposite each other from the frame to the ground. You can get interference from the ground wire if directly wired to the ground of the amp which is sometimes or most times the frame itself. Sometimes doing this will also cure some types of hum. Also try to determine which side is the hot and wire it accordingly.
My amp gave me an electric shock so be careful
 
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Should be easy to actually test: Hook a scope to the power inside the amp (i.e. power switch or transformer. You can try Hot and Nuetral, but obviously the scope ground is connected to the chassis, not across the AC). Zoom in enough to check for audio riding on the AC waveform (amp playing audio, and well cranked up). You need to zoom in enough so that the very top nearly horizontal part of a 60Hz peek takes up the whole screen. Scope will look like a big sad face. Change to the the fancy cord and repeat. Also look to see if the "hash" looks any different with the amp idling.

Possible results:
1. There will be a difference you can see -- it's not just your immagination.
2. Can't see any difference --Your imagination is better than your o'scope.

I have tilted at the power-cord windmill and many other similar "audiophile" issues for years now, but unfortunately one never gets anywhere. The power of suggestion, and experimenter-expectancy, is strong, and no amount of logic, argument about the likely orders of magnitude of physical effects, or, heaven forbid, the introduction of actual measurement data, will persuade someone who believes they hear something. I learned a while back that entering into the world of "high-end audio" is like stepping through the looking-glass into a Lewis Carroll story.

It has been rather convincingly demonstrated in DBX testing that even expert listeners have trouble distinguishing between the sound of a competently-made vacuum tube amplifier and a competently-made solid state amplifier. And yet, people are convinced they can hear the difference between two slightly different power cable, or fuses, or whatever.

There is a nice book, "Audio Power Amplifier Design Handbook," by Douglas Self, which addresses subjectivism and some of the audiophile myths.
 
I think IC cables have had the most easily detected differences in my systems. Usually it's that one sounds rolled off compared to another. When i swapped power cables on my tube amp there was a slight difference in the soundstage width. Not dramatic at all. I've never tried an expensive cable.

Aye, I believe that's what I said... or at least what I meant to say. I'm not always that clear to others... Coarse I may have misunderstood you too... Ah well. Such is communication on the forums :)
 
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Aye, I believe that's what I said... or at least what I meant to say. I'm not always that clear to others... Coarse I may have misunderstood you too... Ah well. Such is communication on the forums :)
I was just agreeing with you on both points.
 
Sticking with the original question... here's a response that indirectly adds a little perspective which is still to be taken with a grain of salt. There will NEVER be a definitive on the cable question, and we don't have to agree but at the very least respect someone elese's decision to make the choice that's right for them. Getting combative and bent out of shape ( which gladly has NOT happened in this thread) serves no purpose. for every opinion on the topic there will be a counter.
The following clip is just one viewpoint. what I like about it , is he didn't try to sell the person on the idea that his company's $300 cable will improve his own brand's $500 integrated.

and ... ( the better approach for me) he offers some ways in which that money CAN be spent to change the performance. Companies risk credibility with this kind of stuff. TOTEM ACOUSTIC selling those BEAK things comes to mind for me. Still enjoy their speakers but I drew the line at the whole beak thing.

I just like the fact that Paul ( PS Audio) offered alternatives despite being a company that sells cables ( and some pricey ones too).

The video speaks to what audio retailers try to get you to balance your equipment purchase in terms of spending. The amp, speakers, signal source (analog or digital) , should be roughly of same proportions. This proportion should give a system with sound that should be balanced. I used that "philosophy" to assemble my system to yield at the time what i felt was a good sounding system.
But, being a salesman, he can not go overboard and explicitly state (he certainly would not refuse to sell the buyer the 300 power cord!) that yes you should buy the expensive power cord. But, like a good salesman instead, recommends the extra 300 to go towards buying a more expensive amp. There is nothing in this video that really is not standard sales techniques.
 
Aye, I believe that's what I said... or at least what I meant to say. I'm not always that clear to others... Coarse I may have misunderstood you too... Ah well. Such is communication on the forums :)
Interconnects have issues that are more easily documented. Since they handle very small signal, usually less than 1vdc, that small signal is more easily affected by conductor to insulator affects, and also outside interference, like rfi and emi.
But how you spend on cables is an economic issue. The high end cable makers realized that there are those who objective is to build a system based on the most expensive components. It is a time tested capitalist business model to provide various items of increasing expense to satisfy the needs of those who can follow a 'cost is no object' purchase.
 
The video speaks to what audio retailers try to get you to balance your equipment purchase in terms of spending. The amp, speakers, signal source (analog or digital) , should be roughly of same proportions. This proportion should give a system with sound that should be balanced. I used that "philosophy" to assemble my system to yield at the time what i felt was a good sounding system.
But, being a salesman, he can not go overboard and explicitly state (he certainly would not refuse to sell the buyer the 300 power cord!) that yes you should buy the expensive power cord. But, like a good salesman instead, recommends the extra 300 to go towards buying a more expensive amp. There is nothing in this video that really is not standard sales techniques.

I disagree ( about the "standard sales techniques" ), and that's the beauty of opinion. :)
 
I was just agreeing with you on both points.

I'm finding Van Damme seem to make some very nice sounding and inexpensive interconnects. Their Studio Blue speaker cable isn't half bad either :)

The silver plated copper is quite excellent with great clarity and treble extension.

I've some of their LC-OFC on the way to try too. I'm hoping it can give similar results to the copper Litz though without the expense - great detail though with added solidity or sense of weight to the sound.

Not a fan of the silver plated Litz. Too thin sounding. The Van Damme is better.

21AWG Western Electric tinned copper IC's seem great with digital sources (think ESS Sabre DAC's) for taming the digital jaggies and bringing the music to life. Brings vocals and lead instruments forward in the mix though is a little rolled off up top. It's why they work well with digital sources I think. Digital artifacts seem to be in the top of the frequency range.

Dueland 16ga tinned copper IC's are very pleasant also being quite layered though I don't find them particularly accurate. More like viewing something through rose coloured lenses. As speaker cable however it's excellent.

Neotech UPOCC has everything there, wittout seemingly affecting the signal in any way. Very neutral.

Mogami I found dry and neutral. Too boring sounding. Less detailed than anything else listed above and with small amounts of distortion which made sound slightly harsh in the extremes.

Canare L4E6S is warm and enjoyable vs the Mogami though with similar distortion / interference characteristics. No point sourcing it when Van Damme is so cheap.

Then there's generic RCA's which I used for the longest time. It's not till you use better for an extended time and go back that you realise how truly awful they are. Just harsh sounding Grates on your ears. Similar sound signature to running a cheap RCA selector though less extreme.

That's all that I can recall trying though there may be some more.

Litz is as expensive as I'll go. So I guess I play in the lower end of the price spectrum. No megabuck cables for me :)

I rather suspect that different companies target different segments of the market. Despite Dueland products being expensive to me, there is little doubt that they offer excellent value compared to many more expensive products from other companies. I'd rather buy a performance part from a value oriented company than a budget part from a cost is no object oriented company. Quite regularly the results will be better :)
 
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Again , staying on topic: It's not a review of cable brands and models, it's not if cables make a difference, it's a pretty focused question.
My question: is it possible that some or most tube amps are tuned or adjusted to sound best with the stock cord?

or simply put are the power cables used by manufacturers of Tube gear an actual choice related to "sound" for the unit being sold. There may be a handful of exceptions, but for most part. No. Same would apply to Fuses and possibly internal wiring. when sticking with the OP's query related to "sound". There are a few brands that promote the brand of internal wire " wired with Cardas" . They may or may not promote it as a sound specific benefit to the consumer.
 
Again , staying on topic: It's not a review of cable brands and models, it's not if cables make a difference, it's a pretty focused question.


or simply put are the power cables used by manufacturers of Tube gear an actual choice related to "sound" for the unit being sold. There may be a handful of exceptions, but for most part. No. Same would apply to Fuses and possibly internal wiring. when sticking with the OP's query related to "sound". There are a few brands that promote the brand of internal wire " wired with Cardas" . They may or may not promote it as a sound specific benefit to the consumer.

I'd doubt it. The results would be affected by the wiring of the home they're in... How close they are to transformer stations etc. I have to run a DC trap on select pieces of equipment for example do to DC current on the mains
 
I have noticed that with a really crappy power cord the gauge of the wire is so small that a voltage drop could occur. So when you go to a proper power cord with the correct gauge of wire you could notice an improvement. Same as an interconnect, the poor ones sound poor and the better ones sound better. But then the concept of diminishing return comes into play, for the tiny improvement in sound that most folks will not be able to hear is it worth the $100 or $200 or $5000 dollar power cord. Its all up to you and if you can hear the difference go for the best you can afford. Just my 2 cents

Gregb
 
Many of the DIY gurus seem to claim that if your kit sounds different with different cables/cords it is because of poor design in the equipment. I tend to believe this in general. After building a few pieces of equipment myself it is hard to believe that a piece of equipment will sound better with a fancy power cord when the PT is wired with thin steel wires. As someone pointed out earlier, the circuit side of an amplifier (or whatever) is not hooked to the incoming AC current. I am now hardwiring my power cords as I "believe" that eliminating the extra connections is likely to bring benefits.
 
And this thread proves why nobody with an opposing view will set a foot into this thread, and neither will I. This this is why the Cutting Edge forum came to be.
Regards,
Jim
"Closed minds lead to missed audio opportunity"
 
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