making the plunge to analog.. finally

Old-School

Well-Known Member
What a daunting task.. The time has finally finally finally come where I feel the need to get a TT and get back to analog. I always compare what I hear to my first exposure to a stereo.. (my brothers system) and my current setup. Both a tough act to follow if I do say so myself. My brothers system was a Kenwood KA-5700 amp, BIC 960 table and technics linear phase speakers.. all new in the late 70's and sounded like a million bux.
You can check my system in my re introduction.
I spent $3000 on my digital source. $1000 for the CDT-1 and $2000 for the Dac3. Sooooo. if I spend the same money on a TT setup where to even start??

#1 My preamp does not have a phono section. So have to start there IMO... a ARC phono preamp? Maybe. A Little Bear T-10? A chinese copy of a famous circuit built into a new unit?? Fun and doable... an off the shelf solution of some sort??.. I'm not changing preamps though it might be best. and ULTIMATELY CHEAPER?

#2 a good TT. Now this is a can of worms from the word go. A table. A plinth. A arm. A cart. I'm getting a headache just thinking about it. I doubt my choice will be a new unit.. so most likely used. I cant stand belts, so most likely direct drive.

Local I sniffed out a Thornes TD-160 super for $850, loaded with a Linn basik arm and Audio Technica AT95E cartridge. $850. A solid choice?????

Numerous technics units $300 range. I got no problem with them.. they are popular for a reason. They work. But Im looking for next level stuff here.

Linn LP-12. Linn arm. Ortofon cart. $1600. This makes my soul hurt due to a bad experience in the past. A solid contender though every linn owner I ever met was a colossal A-hole.

BIC 980 working for $175. Have to mention it due to a soft spot in my heart for BIC and likely out performs the linn on a good day.

Looking through a popular auction site there is no shortage of good choices.

My "dream" table is still the Oracle Delphi. Maybe i should just bite the bullet and get this???

My budget is $3000 for table (complete with arm and cart) and phono section. Lets see what this can of worms looks likle.
 
Sota Sapphire is in your budget. A great table made in the USA. Best isolation you'll find for the money.

Nashou
 
I think a lot of folks would take that $3000 budget, and put only $200 each towards the cartridge and the phono preamp, which would be OK if you are planning to upgrade later, but would fall far short of the possible sound quality otherwise. My recommendation would be to split your budget in roughly equal thirds for table, cartridge, preamp. This would be assuming an absence of disproportionate bargains, of course. You might want to look for one of those bargains for the turntable.

You should budget for a record cleaning machine or system, too.

Unless your ears are the kind that reject digital, or swoon over Rice Krispies, it will likely take more fiddling, money, and patience to get your vinyl front end up to the sound quality of your digital sources.
 
I am a lover of Thorens tables (have a 160 and 145) but that is too high a price, even with the Linn arm (I am a fan of the original TP-16 arm anyways).

My friend has an Oracle and it looks and sounds incredible. if you can find one in your budget, get that!
 
I spent $3000 on my digital source. $1000 for the CDT-1 and $2000 for the Dac3. Sooooo. if I spend the same money on a TT setup where to even start??
Well for one thing I wouldn't look at record and digital playback as the same and getting the same results with equal dollars. If you don't have a record collection and other supporting things like a way to clean them properly you will need to spend money on that too. I wouldn't start spending 3000-4000 on a setup unless you really are committed to all involved.

The record is the other half of the SQ your going to get from any table setup. If your plan is to buy cheap GW and yard sale records when you can find them half way descent you don't need a high end table. If your plan is to buy the best records around like Classic Records, Analogue Production, MFSL and other very nice new records @ $25-$60 or more. As well as learning about records in the used market buying the best of the best, a high end table will be right for you. Not all records are equal, and if cheap low grade titles are your plan then a inexpensive consumer table will be fine.
You can do a lot with a SL-1200 Mk II, a $400-$500 cart and a sub $500 stage with the general quality of records.

Using a better table and arm with better quality of records will be bliss even with the same cart and staging above.


My "dream" table is still the Oracle Delphi. Maybe i should just bite the bullet and get this???
I like these tables and this is where I say it gets serious when buying records for it. Others fall into this class like.
Michel Gyrodeck, Gyro SE, and Orbe
SOTA Sapphire, SOTA Star Sapphire

The SOTA Star Sapphires, SME Series 309 & V arm, with a Sumiko Blackbird cart is really my end game table. I haven't needed more than this and I buy records that equal the quality. Now not all records are great but you get what you can find in the music you like.

My budget is $3000 for table (complete with arm and cart) and phono section. Lets see what this can of worms looks likle.

The above tables fit in this price range but might have lesser arms and carts that can be upgraded if they come with a arm. Buying tables like this is the sum of the parts as to what they cost.
 
Next level stuff:

Let's assume you will be ok with a manual table (you need to do something to stop play at the end of the record) vs, a semi-auto that does something at the end and a full-auto where you press play and the table does everything.

Glad you can go that route because the use of a tonearm made by someone else can be a very nice thing on some of the great vintage tables, many of them direct drive as you think you want. I don't have an idler drive table but the DD vs the belt drive for me is I don't care, got one of each for the main tables. The DD gives usually quicker start up and more torque for using the record cleaning system of choice while the platter spins. The belt drive can have an isolated chassis the way the Thorens tables have or a motor placed somewhere away from the table with a rubber band sending the rotational power to the platter.

That TD-160 Super is a nice table, don't know how good the arm, I use SME 3009, Audiomods and Magnepan Unitrac on my tables. But that cartridge is a bottom of the line inclusion to make the table work. It needs a good $500-1500 cartridge to sound very nice. As to the phono pre, many like the Musical Surroundings Phonomena (and II) as they will handle both the moving coil and moving magnet cartridges and provides loading changes to tune the circuit for the cartridge. There are others, lots of others. But with those two items you would be playing records for 1500 or so and then have the money for a great cartridge. Once you hear it compared to the AT, that 95E will be gone.

But you said direct drive and there are quite a number of decent direct drive tables that companies made back then with and without tonearms so folks could upgrade/select their own tonearm. Kenwood KD-500/550 or KD-600/650 (armless/with arm) Denon has a few, Technics had some and the good ones may be good enough.

What I find interesting is that you can't stand belts but the two tables you mention in any seriousness are both belt drive. Remember those suspended belt drive tables like Thorens need to be isolated from floor movement when folks walk. My TD-160 Super did bounce a bit but the replacement TD-125 might move but it doesn't affect the playback as the suspended section is a true heavyweight compared to the 160 Super. Same arm and cartridge.
 
Thanks everyone, for all of the great advice.
Especially recommendations on the Sota star sapphire, as I have found one of those local also.
I will put it as one of my main choices. Used of course.
The star sapphire I found has a Benz Ace 6 cart and Tonearm is SME IV. For $1800. Super nice clean condition and is quite a piece to look at.


Blue Shadow, yes I do realize that 2 of the tables I mentioned are belt drive though I said I dont especially like belt drive lol
The Oracle is an exception to that rule, since its a high end piece and hopefully dont have a lot of issues with belts. The main thing I dont like about them is that they always seem to fail when i really want to sit down and enjoy some music. Stretching slipping that kind of thing. It dosent HAVE to be DD. Just less maintenance makes my life easier. And yes manual is perfectly fine.

Back in the 90's I always liked the look of the Denon "UFO" tables. Other companies did a similar design with an all in one drive unit. The JVC "Victor" Japanese made units look to be good quality. Really I have to keep those in the back of my mind, and they seem to be bringing some pretty good money these days. Hard to find a good one under $500.

Plus, leaves me more money for other things.. like a record cleaning system, which I didnt even think of for some reason?? So thanks for that.

Oracle.. cant get past it. So amazing to look at. Here is the bad part. A lot of the ones I see are in need of repair. Motor. Suspension. An arm. $1500 for a used table then I have to scrounge up parts? Thats a lot of money and work.

Slightly off topic.. but how about the Oracle CD players?? Amazing. Might look classy beside a Oracle TT!!!!!!!!

As for albums.. I own some. Only a few really quality ones. So yes. i will need to find some good examples to play.
 
If you give us an idea of what kinds of music you prefer, we can give you our lists of favourite LPs.

Sounds like you are thinking about the SOTA. I'd like to hear one, one of these days, as they get such good press here.

I use a Benz-Micro Wood SL (with the Benz Lukashek PP1 MC preamp) and it sounds excellent. I also have their cheapest MC cart, the MC20E2-L, and it is quite good. That is an excellent bonus, getting a Benz on the table!
 
The star sapphire seems like it could be nice table.

the Benz Acs S, don't recall which Tom had the L, M or H but he wasn't happy with it half the time. Did one type of his music great the other type, no toe tapping going on. He moved on. But that should not stop you. There is more budget to upgrade after you get playing.

When his cartridge we here we listened to it and decided it was fine and that Tom just didn't care for its presentation on one kind of his music. He had modern dance/electronic/and whatever and then the classical/jazz. Probably didn't like that modern music. Got an Ortofon MC30 Super and that is one damn fine cartridge. But there are a lot of them out there in the range of what that sota/sme should be wearing.
 
I’d be running to check out the SOTA, without seeing it the price is very good. Still have money for a stage as well.
 
With your budget you could look into a used Technics SP10 MkII. It is a DD drive unit and with any number of tonearm/cart setups, your pretty much in the big leagues. They like the SOTA's and Oracle, and quite a number of other tables when paired with the right plinth, arm, cart, and phono stage you can pretty much end your searches for up grades.
 
A BIC 960 was my first turntable, and used with a Pioneer integrated amp and EPI 100 speakers. Over the next six or seven years, I switched to a Garrard, then a Thorens, and finally an LP12 in 1985. I never had issues with belts, but I did buy a new one about every five years; that seems to be a normal recommended time span. I currently use a lower-end Rega RP3, and their site says, "We recommend changing the drive belt approximately every five years to ensure accurate speed performance."

If you like direct drive, a new Technics SL-1200GR at $1700 might be worth considering. Another 'table that's interesting to me anyway is the Well Tempered Simplex Mk II at $2000. I bought a new Well Tempered Record Player in 2008. That was from Stanalog and shortly before Firebaugh re-started his own Well Tempered line with the Amadeus. It sounded as good or better than my LP12, though I did find the Linn easier and more pleasant to both set up and use.

In a downsizing/simplifying frame of mind several years ago, I divested myself of a large number of things, not just audio, replacing some of them with single items of reduced size and cost. The Rega RP3 surprised me at the time I auditioned it as being a very capable, very involving player. I enjoy listening sessions of about 2 hours each morning before other obligations take me from it, and I can't say I enjoy my records any less despite the low-cost turntable. Based on this, I'd recommend giving Rega models like the new Planar 3 and Planar 6 an audition.

I haven't spent a lot of time with stand-alone phono stages, though I have auditioned Dynavector's P75, Musical Surroundings Phenomena, and Grado's PH-1. I ended up buying the Grado phono stage for use with one of their low output wood body cartridges (which worked great with the Well Tempered), but I'm currently using the moving magnet only phono stage built into my Audio by Van Alstine preamp. It holds its own quite well (I actually prefer it over the Grado phono stage, but it only works with the higher output Reference series from Grado), and if my AVA preamp ever dies, even if I end up with a different brand of preamp (AVA's new models aren't as full-featured as my older one), I might have to own their Vision Q phono stage to go with it. It's $499 and works with both MM and MC cartridges.

I use a Nitty Gritty model 1.0 (all manual) record cleaner. I think they're currently about $500. There's also the Record Doctor V, recommended by Michael Fremer, for $200. Fremer's short video didn't cover Record Doctor's own fluid or brush, but those accessories can be obtained from any company you prefer for use with the cleaning machine. I'm partial to Nitty Gritty's Pure 2, but that's also the only fluid I've tried.
 
Thanks everyone, for all of the great advice.
Especially recommendations on the Sota star sapphire, as I have found one of those local also.
I will put it as one of my main choices. Used of course.
The star sapphire I found has a Benz Ace 6 cart and Tonearm is SME IV. For $1800. Super nice clean condition and is quite a piece to look at.

If you want you can send me a link to it in a conversation and I can tell you what I see, how old it might be and estimate the value for you. I can also tell you what to look out for and how to transport it safely.
 
I listen to a lot of smooth jazz, some Fattburger, Tower Of Power, Fourplay, Pieces Of A Dream, Spyro Gyra, Yellowjackets. Along with classic rock, some older progressive bands, Yes, Rush, and the usual stuff. 70's too. Sometimes I throw some heavier stuff in there to clean the dust out and make sure everything is up to par.
 
Just an update.. I did purchase 1 TT!! Its not the end game table.. but a good one none the less.. in need of repair.. and its DD! I'll post pics as soon as I get it and start to work on it. In the mean time I will give you one hint, and its mentioned in the post #7 of mine above.
Still looking at phono sections... and pacing the floor.
 
I've been digging around on the web and realize (my brain moves a lot slower than it used to) some of the old broadcast turntables sure are nice fixed up.. russco, collins, etc. I realli like the no nonsense look and the big shifter knob for speed.
 
Back
Top Bottom