I have both But I did my own mods similar to what Marc does. I'll reveal my thoughts on the two, but mine is sans Vacuum .
Athanasios
Step One In A Grand Experiment
- Thread starter Mister Pig
- Start date
I have both But I did my own mods similar to what Marc does. I'll reveal my thoughts on the two, but mine is sans Vacuum .
Athanasios
Mister Pig
Pigamus Maximus
Well its not a very fair question, as the AR has the modified but captive tone arm. The question of materials and mass come into play also, as one is fairly light mass but rigid in construction, and the Sota is a more massive oriented design.
The build quality of the Sota is excellent, especially in the bearing and the platter. The spring suspension works really well also.
The Morin modified AR XA looks nowhere as finished in terms of the subcomponents, but the table performs mechanically very very well, as the modifications are executed to perfection.
Now the kicker is I never tried to run the quality of cartridge I did on the XA as I am the Sota. I didn't have the same level of VTA adustment, and I didn't have enough counter balance for certain cartridges like the Cadenza Blue. I could get a Cadenza Red on it, but the counterweight was holding on by its fingernails.
However, with a Denon DL103M or a Denon 304, I got superb results, and a combination that performed past its affordable cost.
Now in my system, the Sota does not put its best foot forward, to me it sounds a bit dark and recalcitrant. I have had this arm and cartridge combination on the Denon DP 75 in a sprung VPI plinth, and got significantly different results. So in some ways I would say I prefer the Morin modified AR XA, but I acknowledge its shortcomings and limitations. The Sota should be better, and in someone elses system it may very well be. With the Cadenza Blue on the table I get a better balance, and perhaps with a cartridge like a Lyra it would be more to my liking. Now it could be a matter of system balance too. I find that my current pre-amp/amplifier/interconnect combination can be a bit dark, and it might exacerbate this situation with the Sota. If the amplification stage performed a bit differently, I might refer to the table as relaxed and effortless, as its all an evaluation that occurs in the context of a whole system.
I am not going to give up on it quite yet. However, I am content with the SP 10 MK II and the DP 75, so I might end this in the near future as I cannot see investing in a Herculean effort to get the table as good as the ones I already have.
But I would say a Morin modified AR XA is one of the better values in hifi for those who want quality analog sound. Yes there are limitations, and some difficulties setting VTA. But it can be done with cartridge shimming, and the end result is excellent sound.
Cheers
Mister Pig
I hope it would be different, other wise we would just be moving sideways.
The fact of the matter is your trying to make the SOTA sound like something you already have as a base point...Why?
I would think one would try to get the system to sound to ones liking and have components work well together. Ask yourself this...have you ever seen a SOTA table setup the way your doing it? I never have. All the reviews that have ever been done on this table that I know of never used what you are.
Common cartridges and arms for this table with many many happy owners are as follows.
Sumiko Cartridges, From Sumiko Talisman Virtuoso, Alchemist to the Blackbirds and EVO III
Sumiko and SME arms and many with the ET2
SOTA Phono Head Amp
Im sure all the building of this table revolved around these other components.
Ask me what I use and or have used, ask me why I use what I use...
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Mister Pig
Pigamus Maximus
Part of the reason of using the table the way I have it at the moment is that it can facilitate a direct comparison between the drive units. Exact arm and cartridge combination will eliminate variables.
The other point is I am waiting for a good example of SME IV or V to come available. I initially planned to use a IV on it, but that scenario did not work out. So I am in waiting mode.
I have owned several of the Sumiko cartridges, from an Alchemist IIIS, to several Blackbirds and EVO's. I know what they sound like. The Ortofon A90 is the most neutral cartridge I have ever encountered, so it was interesting to hear it on the table. The Cadenza Blue is the most detailed cartridge I own, it was designed that way, and its perhaps the best match for the table. However, when I had Blackbirds here I noticed they sounded similar in presentation to my ZYX 4D, which I found interesting. I could move my 4D over to the Sota, and may very well do that. I just hate pulling that cartridge off the SP 10, but it probably will happen.
It is not a matter of wanting it to make it sound like my other tables, but rather wanting it to exceed one of them. We have not gotten to that point yet, but this stuff you just do not toss together and get perfection on the first try. So we will work at it a bit more.
As far as the Acos arm goes, its been known to be a tad clinical and unforgiving. Its wired with silver internal wire, and the Analysis Plus Silver Apex tone arm cable I have on it is also silver. This is not a dark and distant tone arm, so I sincerely doubt its the root cause of this presentation. But I am always willing to experiment with options, and eliminate variables before I draw conclusions. Actually it has an interesting history, as some folks like Raul on Audiogon considered it to be a top flight arm, while Linnies back in the day thought the Ittok to be better. It came out at the tail end of Japanese hgh end analog, and never got traction because it was meant for lower compliance moving coils and was quite expensive.
Cheers
Mister Pig
Mister Pig
Pigamus Maximus
Oh and as far as arms used that were not SME, Audioquest was quite prevelent and they are Jelco in origin. There were instances of Fidelity Research being used also, which is similar in concept to this Acos. Of course the ET was another well used option, whixh I have owned 2 of, and undwrstand rheir sound. In comparison the GST 801 is a fine arm in terms of materials and quality of construction, but different in drsign execution.
Cheers
Mister Pig
That was the plan
I would hope so at least in your opinion as to what you like better as to sound. I'v watched you put a lot more effort on many other tables that had far less promise and reputation. I personally don't know of anyone who has come up with some of your descriptions of this table, most call them very musical and their end game deck. Don't know anyone who has bought one and then sold it in favor of a Techniques or even a Denon. But we all have different supporting equipment and taste as to what we like.
I have half a mind to pack up a
ET2 arm, arm board, it's weight and all supporting equipment.
A SME 309 arm
Cosmos Board
SOTA Phono Head amp
Sumiko Blackbird, EVO III, Talisman Virtuoso DTi,
Talisman Virtuoso Boron
And ship it to you.....
Then I could put some weight on your opinion and effort to work with it.
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Mister Pig
Pigamus Maximus
Oh I did mention that this is a work in progress, and that is really what this thread is, a rambling sting of entries describing what I experience as I work through this.
The initial plan was to put a IV in place. That did not work out, and there happens to be no IV or V on USAudiomart, Canuckmart, or Audiogon that I am willing to buy at the moment. So I have to wait. Figured while I wait I can move over the Acos and a cartridge to the Sota to make sure everything works right, because I owe the Ebay seller feedback. I can't give him proper feedback without playing the table and making sure things are up to snuff. Also, it makes sense to have a single variable, and I can do that with this arm.
Actually a friend was over this evening to hear the Sota. For fun we moved the Acos back to the Denon DP 75 and listened. Very different presentation with just a drive unit being changed.
Could it be an arm/table incompatibility? Maybe I suppose. However, it sure sounds mighty fine on the DP 75/VPI plinth. An arm that sounds that good can't be bad.
Oh well, we will see what happens.
Cheers
Mister Pig
Arm used on a cast aluminum arm board and not properly coupled.
But the big thing also is the difference in platters and mats. As I said before the tables platter and mat R&D was done with Sumiko and SME carts and arms. If they voiced the platter and mat to mimic vinyl as they say the cart and arm used for voicing a opinion of sound might be a good start to use.
I'm just trying to push your effort so you get a better view of the table and a honest picture of what it can be. I have things you can use and try so as your not spending money on things you might not like. If they work out good you know what to buy and move forwards. If not sell the table at no loss.
So I was able to sit down and listen to the Sota vs the SP10 with a ZyX cartridge vs the Denon table. The Acos arm was switched between the Sota and the Denon with a Cadenza Blue cart. We tried the Sota with the vacuum at about 40% and at the end of the audition the vacuum completely off . As a bonus the Ortodon A90 was put on at the end of the audition .
First up was the SP10 with ZyX cartridge sound was Six Blade Knife by Dire Straights , this combination exhibits a very wide and deep soundstage with a very light and airy presentation that feels as if you could reach out and touch the instruments with the singers voice planted dead center , it’s imo a very nice way to listen to music , totally involving with speakers melted away and being left with just the music , often said like your sitting front row at a concert just for you . This was extremely satisfying.
Next was the Sota /Acos/Cadenza Blue , same song (Six Blade Knife). The first thing I noticed was it was much more punchy sounding , instruments had more slam, but the soundstage was collapsed as if the bubble shrunk . The sound was exciting like put on rock and turn it up but not sit and critically listen.
Next up was the Denon /Acos /Cadenza. Now we’re getting back to that open soundstage but not quite to the sp10 ZyX level and that has a lot to do with the different cartridges of course, but the sound was more open than on the Sota which lead me to believe that something was going on with the Sota .
We went back to the Sota/Acos/Cadenza this time the pump was turned off . Much better this way imo , soundstage was more open and still had that punchyness to it but it still wasn’t open and it just seemed like the Sota was being held back , or maybe that’s just it’s signature? I don’t know as this is the first time I have listen to a Sota and I always have wanted to , this table is on my bucket list to own . So I’m not sure if its the Arm , Cartridge or something else but there is definitely something going on .
For fun we put the A90 on the Denon and that combo is just a Grand Slam , it ticks all the boxes for sonic goodness imo. So that’s my take on the Sota , I thnk it’s a great table and the construction is first rate , I think that it’s possibly just a mismatch of arm/cartridge or maybe just the wrong cartridge. I personally would be happy with the Sota but I would be comparing it to my Marc Morin ArXa which is a great performer and does about everything right , the only shortcoming with it is the lack of vta adjustment and with the Sota depending on the arm the vta can be adjusted and many more selections of cartridges can be had with the Sota .
Well that’s my take , all excellent tables and cartridges, the bar is set high for the Sota to be able to measure up to the other two and I believe with the right combo it just might be able to stand with them but as of now it falls a bit short . I wouldn’t give up quite yet though , I think the Sota has a place on Mr Pigs farm whether he agrees or not we’ll just have to see .
Audiofreak71
First up was the SP10 with ZyX cartridge sound was Six Blade Knife by Dire Straights , this combination exhibits a very wide and deep soundstage with a very light and airy presentation that feels as if you could reach out and touch the instruments with the singers voice planted dead center , it’s imo a very nice way to listen to music , totally involving with speakers melted away and being left with just the music , often said like your sitting front row at a concert just for you . This was extremely satisfying.
Next was the Sota /Acos/Cadenza Blue , same song (Six Blade Knife). The first thing I noticed was it was much more punchy sounding , instruments had more slam, but the soundstage was collapsed as if the bubble shrunk . The sound was exciting like put on rock and turn it up but not sit and critically listen.
Next up was the Denon /Acos /Cadenza. Now we’re getting back to that open soundstage but not quite to the sp10 ZyX level and that has a lot to do with the different cartridges of course, but the sound was more open than on the Sota which lead me to believe that something was going on with the Sota .
We went back to the Sota/Acos/Cadenza this time the pump was turned off . Much better this way imo , soundstage was more open and still had that punchyness to it but it still wasn’t open and it just seemed like the Sota was being held back , or maybe that’s just it’s signature? I don’t know as this is the first time I have listen to a Sota and I always have wanted to , this table is on my bucket list to own . So I’m not sure if its the Arm , Cartridge or something else but there is definitely something going on .
For fun we put the A90 on the Denon and that combo is just a Grand Slam , it ticks all the boxes for sonic goodness imo. So that’s my take on the Sota , I thnk it’s a great table and the construction is first rate , I think that it’s possibly just a mismatch of arm/cartridge or maybe just the wrong cartridge. I personally would be happy with the Sota but I would be comparing it to my Marc Morin ArXa which is a great performer and does about everything right , the only shortcoming with it is the lack of vta adjustment and with the Sota depending on the arm the vta can be adjusted and many more selections of cartridges can be had with the Sota .
Well that’s my take , all excellent tables and cartridges, the bar is set high for the Sota to be able to measure up to the other two and I believe with the right combo it just might be able to stand with them but as of now it falls a bit short . I wouldn’t give up quite yet though , I think the Sota has a place on Mr Pigs farm whether he agrees or not we’ll just have to see .
Audiofreak71
Funny you mention the openness or lack there of.
It's been a great number of years that I Haven't used a SOTA Phono Head Amp in my system for all my tables. In fact I got the first one very shortly after my first Star, like within two weeks. They are not easy to find but I found another stand alone stage after trial and error that worked pretty good till I found enough SOTAs.
The reason I use it? and no less with HOMC and between a MC & MM stage?
As soon as I got it and notice, and what I tell everyone about it. It adds space, It pushes the celling up and the walls out. It turns my smallish listening space into a concert hall full of expanse with an airy bloom. I have thought about removing them, but they matched with the MC stage in the McIntosh C100 is just right for me and just about the same with the MM and I use the higher gain in that one.
I guess what I'm trying to say is I don't know or remember what the Star sounds like without the head amps, it's been like 5 years now. But it's also 5 years of never needing to look to better what I did. Thats saying something, sure I buy other tables, carts, arms but nothing has bumped it yet, in fact I already knew they wouldn't before buying.
I truly believe that, that Sota definitely has the potential and maybe the head amp is the answer in this case not sure , but I think there’s much more that can be squeezed out of that table ow whether that’s true direction Mr Pig wans to take I guess we’ll have to see , we both know that he has two very fine tables and cartridges to accommodate them so it could be that the Sota sound just isn’t his cup of tea but that remains to be seen . I personally hope that he gives the Sota another chance to fit into the stable of champions.
Audiofreak71
try1256
Super Member
This is a pretty accurate description of the sound of my system with my Sota Star/SME/Soundsmith combination. My vacuum is also set to about 40%. I can with confidence say that the Sota is a major contributor to the sound I am hearing from my system. I had the same arm and cart on my modified TD-160 and it didn't get close to what I am hearing now. The rest of my rig is Balanced Audio Technology phono stage, line stage and amplifier into Infinity RS 7 Kappa speakers. It makes sense to me that certain combinations will produce better results than others within a given system. I know John has a top shelf rig so it will shine a light on those differences.
I have the early Sota Sapphire with no vacuum and mine is open and wide Sound Stage, but it might also be to my speaker placement. And It too is punchy and has great bass.
It has the MMT tone arm and I use an Acutex LPM 312 STR on it and the Sumiko EVO III, both sound great to me.
Nashou
It has the MMT tone arm and I use an Acutex LPM 312 STR on it and the Sumiko EVO III, both sound great to me.
Nashou
This last page here is reminding me of why I always say one can't just do quick evaluation back and forth A/B ing. Yes it will tell you a little based on the media, music, system and most importantly your mood at that specific time. Everything will sound different that should be a given, better? maybe not for the long run.
My view is to use different components over days and weeks as our mood changes. Working with the different things if needed and acclimate to what I am hearing over time. I then determine it's weaknesses and what it excels at and if it's beneficial to keep in my system. After awhile my system is comprised of different components I select for specific music, mood, time of day and what I want the system to present.
I worked with many different tables, carts and staging to come to what works best in my space and with my system and if the benefits outweigh the faults.
I then let that front end stay the same and use it. My system also is comprised of multiple amps and speaker combinations. Yep they all sound different, not really better just different and work best depending on a few things. It all depends on my mood and what music I'm listening to at a given time. Why would I do this? because nothing is perfect with everything we want to listen to. mostly because of our mood, but no one system works best for everything that's played though it either.
My view is to use different components over days and weeks as our mood changes. Working with the different things if needed and acclimate to what I am hearing over time. I then determine it's weaknesses and what it excels at and if it's beneficial to keep in my system. After awhile my system is comprised of different components I select for specific music, mood, time of day and what I want the system to present.
I worked with many different tables, carts and staging to come to what works best in my space and with my system and if the benefits outweigh the faults.
I then let that front end stay the same and use it. My system also is comprised of multiple amps and speaker combinations. Yep they all sound different, not really better just different and work best depending on a few things. It all depends on my mood and what music I'm listening to at a given time. Why would I do this? because nothing is perfect with everything we want to listen to. mostly because of our mood, but no one system works best for everything that's played though it either.
Mister Pig
Pigamus Maximus
Everyone approaches this hobby differently, and has different system building philosophies. I am not one for using multiple speaker systems in a room, and I really prefer one excellent set of speakers, buying the best I can afford. So for me a speaker should be a constant, anchoring the system. I don't care for different as much as I am interested in better. But I try to do that at all component stages, and at turntables is the only place I have some extra components, and can appreciate different in terms of cartridges and analog presentation.
The only thing I can state now is that the Acos belongs on the Denon/VPI combo and is going to stay there. That table an arm with the Ortofon A90 is a well balanced combination that works well together, and there is no reason to change it. I believe its time to pull the Sota and set it behind the couch until an appropriate SME comes available to mount on it. Given this discussion of appropriate cartridge, the Cadenza Blue is slated to go on it, as its is the one that would most closely align with say an early Sumiko. It's a beautiful cartridge in terms of transparency, low level detail resolution, and detail. One of my favorite really, I could listen to it as my only cartridge. There are certain aspects of it I prefer over the ZYX and the A90.
What is not going to happen is a Sota head amp for this system. If I cannot get acceptable results out of a $6K phono stage, then that is going to be a deal breaker. Not interested in going down that rabbit hole.
So at least I have verified functions on the table and gave the seller his positive feedback for the transaction, and learned the basic functions of leveling and setting the table up. Now its just a matter of waiting for the right arm to come available. It took me two years plus to get the Sp 10 in its final form, I guess I can wait a bit.
Cheers
Mister Pig
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I love when I find a good match that I know I don't want to change and it all just sounds right to me. My JBL L 250s and McIntosh MC 501s are like that, the same for the Star & SME Series 309,IV and V my staging and blackbirds. Everything else in my system is subject to change.
Hey Pigs are alway rooting around in holes...
Yep a honest effort, build and evaluation over time. However there will not be much to do with the Star other than getting a arm mounted on it right, and that wants to work with the cartridges you want to use. I heard there is a new updated Star coming out, one of the things that might be being changed is the platter mat. You might want to call Donna and check into it. Let her know what you feel you hear with your table you don't like. You can always just send your platter in to get this mod only.
try1256
Super Member
When I spoke with Donna prior to purchasing my Star, she said there would be some Series VI features that were exclusive and could not be upgraded to from lower series models. She didn’t say what they were though.
Gibsonian
Super Member
Non-coupled always sounds more open or airy to my ears.
"Euphonic", perhaps?
I may have mentioned experimenting with a platterless turntable, it had "air" and a fascinating musicality, but I knew it wasn't being honest with the program content, it was a resonance festival.
As an aside, I'm comparing an amp I love to one I trust for honesty. I love the one that seems more musically euphonic, but tend to trust the Class D as sounding/ being more honest with the material. I could live happily with either, but ----.
