Classic Receiver/New Speakers, did I make the right decision

Some of us have the point of view that you build a system around the speakers. If the ELACs are what Mr. fjship wants, then it would make sense to bring more power to bear on the situation.

If the ELACs are unsuited to his listening tastes, this might be a good opportunity to switch them for something more to his taste.
 
Some of us have the point of view that you build a system around the speakers. If the ELACs are what Mr. fjship wants, then it would make sense to bring more power to bear on the situation.

If the ELACs are unsuited to his listening tastes, this might be a good opportunity to switch them for something more to his taste.

Whether or not one builds one's system around the speakers, the power required to drive them to satisfying listening levels at the desired listening distance with minimal clipping should be a primary consideration (as should be the speaker's ability to handle the required power without mechanical difficulties).
 
I was able to get spl measurements tonight.
With the volume knob at roughly 11:00 I measured a peak of 91db with it holding around 88-89db.

It sounds good with the elacs up to around 85db whereas my pioneer CS-77s sounded ok up to 90db.

This experiment shows me the 2265B has barely enough juice to drive these elacs to a nice level. I definitely would not recommend any less power than 65wpc and probably 100wpc.

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For your situation, you might want to consider a powered sub-woofer. That would take quite a bit of stress off of your mans amp and speakers.

Either that. or larger, more efficient speakers. Those little speakers can only move so much air.
 
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Elac UB5s look like a nice little refined speaker. You could probably cause distortion with 40 WPC no problem and bottom the woofs out if loudness or bass is turned up (and I doubt it's the amp clipping). And I am not sure I would just give them more power or run with any amp and volume up over half way. If you do decide give them more power, be careful because they probably won't last. Some newer speakers just aren't built to take it IMO.
 
Yes. And the most likely answer to his question of "why" is thatto achieve high SPL, those speakers require more power than his amp can deliver (they are not really designed for high volume listening).

If I were the OP, I might think about pairing the Elacs with a powered sub...one with a high pass crossover built into it. By off-loading the lower frequencies to the subwoofer, the amp would gain significant headroom. Not sure if it would be enough to satisfy his needs, but it would help.

Good idea.
 
Elac UB5s look like a nice little refined speaker. You could probably cause distortion with 40 WPC no problem and bottom the woofs out if loudness or bass is turned up (and I doubt it's the amp clipping). And I am not sure I would just give them more power or run with any amp and volume up over half way. If you do decide give them more power, be careful because they probably won't last. Some newer speakers just aren't built to take it IMO.

Did you look at the specs? Did you see the post by the other member with the same speakers? How did you come to the conclusion that the amp is not clipping badly at the point the speakers are drawing enough power to get loud?

Some newer speakers can handle more power than some older speakers. Some older speakers can handle more power than some newer speakers. Some new speakers can handle more power than some other newer speakers. Some older speakers can handle more power than some other older speakers. IMO.
 
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Did you look at the specs? Did you see the post by the other member with the same speakers? How did you come to the conclusion that the amp is not clipping badly at the point the speakers are drawing enough power to get loud?

Some newer speakers can handle more power than some older speakers. Some older speakers can handle more power than some newer speakers. Some new speakers can handle more power than some other newer speakers. Some older speakers can handle more power than some other older speakers. IMO.

I think it's obvious he was overdriving the low end with the amp he has - but unless the OP says how he listens who knows.
 
I think it's obvious he was overdriving the low end with the amp he has - but unless the OP says how he listens who knows.

The speakers are rated to handle 140 watts. He said (implicitly) that he was listening LOUD.

So, your conclusion is that he does not need more sensitive speakers with his amp, but instead he needs speakers that can handle more power because his 40 watt Marantz is overwhelming the ones he has?
 
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I don't know?? It just seems to be a very serious case of "Equipment Abuse??" Is it that hard to "not blow stuff up these days???" Vintage speakers and modern run of the mill HTR's are "apparently" no big deal?? I happen to favor old school very efficient speakers ...KG 4's, Nova 8's Mach One's Sansui (for god sakes) SF1 and Sp 1200??? They can crank as loud as common sense and not having the cops knock on the door will allow ...no issue 100+ db on any of them! And that with much pretty much any old run of the mill HTR!

I just happen to find/score/ and like very efficient speakers ... all the time! It's kinda silly and yeah I have "better stuff" in electronics that I just don't use because for me it's not worth the effort?? But I have very efficient speaker so I can drive them with pretty much anything?? But "efficiency is king!

I have vintage low powered Receivers, I think my Rotel Rv 603 at 65 watts is the most powerful and most likely that could do the same thing?? But hey I'm lazy and like remote control ...my bad. My least efficient speakers are my LX 5's?? And they have always been used with a "powered sub" no problems! Now if I happen to drag in some Maggie's or Martin Logans or some other "Crazy Ass" amp killing speakers ...yeah I'd have to up my game!
And that would be expected ie get a better amp???

The combo the OP is trying to "force" to work together at the level he seeks ... just does not look to be a match??? If he prefers his new speakers more than the Receiver, getting a different amp and most likely the separates thing ... would seem to be a better option, rather than running the risk of destroying both units in an attempt to make them do something they cannot do ... together???

Just my two cents. :)


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If you drove those Elacs with more power chances are they'd blow a cone out far before anywhere near 140 WPC, and with any kind of bass distort long before you got there. The Elacs actually look kind of cheap to me, pull the woof and take a look.

I got Monitor Audio GX50s which are rated similar, 86 dB sensitive - a great speaker for a boutique jazz crowd. But not a good speaker for those who want loud.

That's the way it is - why pretend they will produce based on specs. This whole thread is kind of goofy with all the math - it isn't the amp causing the problem IMO.
 
Yeah, math sucks. Who needs it.

I would mention that your Monitor Audio speakers need a little less than half the power to achieve same sound pressure vs the ELACs...but that would involve math, so forget I said anything.:)
 
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So a question for me is,
If the speaker sensitivity is 85db @ 2.83v at a distance of 1.0 meter, I’m assuming my receiver is putting out 1 watt to bring the elacs to 85db, is that correct or is it more because they are 4 ohms?

Regardless,
Am I safe to assume the receiver needs 4 times the power to push the same speakers to 91db?
If that is true, why is my amp clipping at 91db when it shouldn’t be pushing more than 4 times the power required to sustain 85db?
 
If the speaker sensitivity is 85db @ 2.83v at a distance of 1.0 meter, I’m assuming my receiver is putting out 1 watt to bring the elacs to 85db, is that correct or is it more because they are 4 ohms?

Ohm's Law--yes, you should get 85 dB @ 1 m w/2.83 V w/8 ohm load which = 1 W. Since you halve that impedance to 4 ohm, the amp will have to deliver 2X the amount of current (A) to maintain that voltage (V) to achieve 1 W. Low efficiency (dB SPL 1W/1M) require more W to drive them to higher SPL. Low impedance speakers require more current (A) to maintain voltage to achieve a given (W) output. Without getting into all of the mathematics, unless the amp is capable of delivering a substantial amount of current (A) to maintain voltage (V), it is not going to produce a lot of power (W). Combine that with the fact that the speakers do not produce a high SPL @ 1W/1M, you won't get very far. It is basically, the "double-whammy".
 
I would not consider 3dB barely audible. Rather, it is generally defined as the smallest change to be obvious to someone with average hearing. Many listeners can discern a 2dB change, and some can recognize a 1dB change.

And yes, a doubling of sound pressure - a change of approximately 10dB - requires almost ten times the power.

I am convinced that a widespread lack of understanding regarding the relationship of loudness, power, impedance, sensitivity and listening distance makes clipping a very common problem.
Thank you for this. Don't understand why the 3db is "barely" audible BS keeps being offered up as fact.
 
As a side note;
I have noticed when using an iPhone to record audio, the playback levels sound as if there is some sort of attenuation when volumes get to a certain level acting like a dB pad.
I don’t know if that is necessarily true or how high of sound pressure levels the iPhone mic is rated for.
 
So a question for me is,
If the speaker sensitivity is 85db @ 2.83v at a distance of 1.0 meter, I’m assuming my receiver is putting out 1 watt to bring the elacs to 85db, is that correct or is it more because they are 4 ohms?

Regardless,
Am I safe to assume the receiver needs 4 times the power to push the same speakers to 91db?
If that is true, why is my amp clipping at 91db when it shouldn’t be pushing more than 4 times the power required to sustain 85db?

2 watts for 85dB average output at 1 meter. But in reality, more like 8-16 watts - to avoid or at least minimize clipping of transient peaks (which are 6dB-12dB higher than average output, assuming just a decent recording).

And of course this is at 1 meter. And of course the crest factor (the difference between average and peaks) of a very good recording can be quite a bit more than 12dB....especially in the classical music genre.

Anyway, extend that to a more normal listening distance and your 2 watts will putting out roughly 78dB of continuous output in an average room A good assumption is that you lose approximately 4-5dB for each doubling of distance.

To get back to 85dB of continuous (aka average) output at that more normal listening distance, your amp will need to be putting out approximately 8 watts (instead of 2). Add another 6-12dB for transient peaks, and it will need to deliver 32-128 watts to handle them.

Now let's turn the sound up to 91dB. At the extended listening distance, you would need 32 watts of continuous power, and 128-512 watts for peaks. As you can see, with these speakers at that volume, your amp will be clipping pretty heavily. Additionally, you are pressing the speakers beyond their mechanical capabilities, which will result in even more distortion or damage.

Bottom line, these speakers are just not designed for seriously high volumes. That said, I personally consider 85dB to be the point at which music starts sounding loud, and the low 90s to be the point at which it starts sounding LOUD. Mid to upper 90s starts getting close to live venue sound pressures.

For context, I was at a Counting Crows concert a few months ago, about 12 rows from the stage at a semi-outdoor venue (Starlight Theater in KC), and the opening band was pushing close to 110dB of steady output, peaking well above 120dB. Thankfully, I had ear plugs. And even more thankfully, Counting Crows dialed it back a bit...low 100's, with corresponding peaks.
 
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Since it has already been touched upon, I'll take it a little further.

Music is dynamic, so peak transients vs a static sine wave is a huge factor--the transients can require 10X or greater than the "average" RMS power. Depending on the manufacturer and era of production, the RMS (continuous) wattage rating could be from 20-20KHz, or it could be only at 1KHz (generally into an 8 ohm "dummy load"). Speakers are also not a "static" load, in that their impedance can be far lower or higher at different points across the frequency response range than their "composite" rated impedance.

My point being, that (if on paper) 40w RMS will get you the SPL that you want, the second that kick-drum hits may require 10X that much power (or more) for that millisecond. The speaker may have an impedance dip to 2 ohms or less in that frequency range--adding further demand on the amp. This is why you will hear amp/speaker combinations that "flatten out" at higher volume levels--lose dynamics. Although not into the range of out-right audible clipping distortion, they are not accurately handling the transients--either the amp can't come up with the "juice" or the speaker is approaching its mechanical limits--or both.
 
Yeah, math sucks. Who needs it.

I would mention that your Monitor Audio speakers need a little less than half the power to achieve same sound pressure vs the ELACs...but that would involve math, so forget I said anything.:)

I don't have a problem with math and would own you on it. The problem I have is all the analysis that went into one guy's post without any other information.
 
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