Okay. Two channel and Home Theater. It cant be mixed
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I like to watch movies through my 2.0 system. My mains are Klipsch La Scalas, and I like the dynamic range, and the way the mid horns project dialogue. I also think music is a very important component of movie sound, and I like having a system which makes music sound great.
I used to have a 5.1 system with Triad speakers, and sub, and a Denon 7.1 receiver, set up in the same room as my stereo. One day I decided to try a movie through the stereo instead of the theater sound setup, and the next day I packed all the home theater stuff into my storage room.
I don't miss the surround sound effects, or the exaggerated bass the subwoofer produced, at all. The whole dinosaur stomping or ground rumbling, or planes flying overhead stuff doesn't really appeal to me, I'd rather have extremely clear dialogue, and good sounding music, and I get it in 2.0. This is strictly opinion though, I should also note I don't watch a lot of action movies, and a lot of the movies I watch are older ones which are either mono or stereo mixes to begin with.
Frankly I like Stanley Kubrick's approach of mixing everything to mono - I like the sound to come from the screen, because the screen is where everything is happening. If I had the dollars, I'd install a perforated screen, and put the speakers behind it. Total luddite approach, I understand, but hey, we all have different opinions.
I used to have a 5.1 system with Triad speakers, and sub, and a Denon 7.1 receiver, set up in the same room as my stereo. One day I decided to try a movie through the stereo instead of the theater sound setup, and the next day I packed all the home theater stuff into my storage room.
I don't miss the surround sound effects, or the exaggerated bass the subwoofer produced, at all. The whole dinosaur stomping or ground rumbling, or planes flying overhead stuff doesn't really appeal to me, I'd rather have extremely clear dialogue, and good sounding music, and I get it in 2.0. This is strictly opinion though, I should also note I don't watch a lot of action movies, and a lot of the movies I watch are older ones which are either mono or stereo mixes to begin with.
Frankly I like Stanley Kubrick's approach of mixing everything to mono - I like the sound to come from the screen, because the screen is where everything is happening. If I had the dollars, I'd install a perforated screen, and put the speakers behind it. Total luddite approach, I understand, but hey, we all have different opinions.
MannyE
Exterminate!
IT sounds like you might not have had a properly set up system... a well set up HT sound system especially one with good equipment, which you have, shouldn't be boomy. But if it was set up right, and you didn't care for the "immersive" sound, then that's great. Money savings!
IT sounds like you might not have had a properly set up system... a well set up HT sound system especially one with good equipment, which you have, shouldn't be boomy. But if it was set up right, and you didn't care for the "immersive" sound, then that's great. Money savings!
I suppose there's degrees of boomy. A lot of movies are mixed heavy on the low end, and that's more or less what I didn't care for. It would sound good with one film, then I'd put on another and it was too much or too little bass. I never could get the sub to integrate absolutely seamlessly with the mains. I did take the time to set it up as well as I know how, and I was satisfied with it for years.. I just tried something else and liked it more. Who knows, maybe in the future I'll see a movie which makes me re-visit surround sound, I'm not closed minded to it. I suspect if I was into sci-fi and action movies, which are intended to be heard in surround, I'd change my tune.
Another consideration is I'm more a music guy than a movie guy, and having two systems in a room which is already full of furniture and other stuff is a bit overwhelming. If I win the lottery my next house will have a dedicated auditorium, but for now I have to be satisfied with what I've got
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Grenadeslio
Lunatic Member
3db
Addicted Member
Proove it too yourself in a blind listening test. I did and sure as hell surprised me and now Im free of this whole audiophile separates verses AVR BS. To each their own.
Grenadeslio
Lunatic Member
Its been shown in blind tests (since you like tests so much) that the masses couldn't tell the difference, that is until they were tutored in what to listen for, IE imaging, soundstage, decay, etc. After the results were completely flipped, most could consistently pick out the differences. Now whether those differences are important to you only you can decide, personally I prefer a realistic 3 dimensional soundstage that transports me to the venue, or invites the band into my home to a flat two dimensional lifeless one. As such I'm willing to pay for it.
3db
Addicted Member
Seriously, I get all of those qualities with the AVR. I was taught to listen for these qualities before doing the blind listening test. Thats why I was so gob smacked. The tests went further by pushing the AVR to its limits and its only then when things began to become unglued for the AVR. Reducing the volume back down brought back the sound.
I would like to see these studies were things were flipped once the listeners were educated.
Grenadeslio
Lunatic Member
You might want to check out this thread.
http://audiokarma.org/forums/index....-amplifiers-sound-alike.845304/#post-12139248
3db
Addicted Member
Thanks for this post but the thread is nothing but an opnion poll.
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tyeeslayer
Super Member
Yes it can but only if you can find a stand alone processor. Mine is a Yamaha but only pro-logic.
Check my signature for my 2 in 1 system. It has been updated since the original pictures
http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=528673
Check my signature for my 2 in 1 system. It has been updated since the original pictures
http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=528673
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simplynuts
Super Member
I find the sound on well made dvd rock concerts sound better than some cds on my home theater. The immersive sound is better. I have polks on my ht setup, but use dynaco a50's through a luxman r-117 for music. Once forgot to change the bass setting on my home theater to send it only to the subwoofers (have two) and my room sounded like an earthquake and the center speaker vibrated off the shelf. (luckily it didn't hit the tv under it or break itself apart).
simplynuts
Super Member
The key speaker is the center channel and is the most expensive and best speaker in my setup. I upgraded from a harmon kardon speaker and the difference in dialogue is amazing.
I have 3 systems that work well for movies and music.
IME the relevance of surround-sound depends on room layout, and genre of music.
I have 3 systems that serve double duty for movies and music:
These systems work well for both movies and music. For the classical music I love, I have the minimum number of components (and DSPs) in the music chain. I can directly connect my vintage tube amps (e.g., a pair of MC30s) to my Oppo UDP-205 (i.e., no pre-amp, no pre-processor, no AVR, no outboard electronic crossover, etc).
Bottom line – IME – 2-channel and “home theater” CAN be mixed quite successfully.
IME the relevance of surround-sound depends on room layout, and genre of music.
- Room layout. IME, when the main speakers must be far apart due to room layout, then a center channel is useful. Also, part of the “live-concert-hall experience” for large-scale orchestral music isn’t just the surround, it’s the amount of acoustic power. If in the same size room, you have quantity of 3 identical speakers (left, center, right), you’ll have more acoustic power than 2 speakers.
- Genre of music. Hi-res surround-sound recordings (SACD (audio-only), Pure Audio Blu-ray (audio-only), DSD downloads (audio only), Blu-ray (audio/video), and Ultra HD Blu-ray (audio/video)) are commonly available for classical, opera and ballet, and are capable of fabulous sound. (Blu-ray audio/video classical concert recordings are becoming common, and box sets (e.g., all symphonies by a composer) are often a great value.)
I have 3 systems that serve double duty for movies and music:
- One 4.2 system. Front, center, and left speakers are Klipsch RF-7 II. A single rear speaker is a Klipsch RF-7. (Y cable from Oppo UDP-205 combines Surround L and Surround R. Oppo confirmed that this arrangement is OK.) Multiple tube amps. I connect one stereo tube amp for front L&R, plus a second tube amp for center and rear. Two subs connected via RCA Y cable to Oppo. (SVS SB16-Ultra, Klipsch R-115SW.) For stereo source material, there is no compromise in audio quality when played as stereo – except that in this system the speakers are somewhat far apart. Or, I can engage the Oppo’s DTS Neo:6 feature to generate pseudo center-channel and rear content, but I generally don’t want DSPs “mucking around” with the classical music I love. For classical recordings that feature surround-sound, I realize excellent sound quality via my tube amps.
- Two 2.1 systems. Speakers are close enough (5 feet apart) that there is no “hole” that needs to be filled in (i.e., no need for a center channel). For Blu-ray movies, I use the stereo track, and dialog is mixed into the L&R speakers. Each of these systems has multiple tube amps, plus one solid-state amps for movies. In both systems the large tower speakers and subwoofer deliver excellent sound quality.
These systems work well for both movies and music. For the classical music I love, I have the minimum number of components (and DSPs) in the music chain. I can directly connect my vintage tube amps (e.g., a pair of MC30s) to my Oppo UDP-205 (i.e., no pre-amp, no pre-processor, no AVR, no outboard electronic crossover, etc).
Bottom line – IME – 2-channel and “home theater” CAN be mixed quite successfully.
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3db
Addicted Member
Nice !! The only time I can think of that a center channel is needed is when one sits so far from center that dialogue comes across to the left or right speaker, which ever one is closer too and the dialog is no longer anchored to the screen. Maybe with multi channel audio as well but I dont any so Im guessing on this last point.
MannyE
Exterminate!
Not that I want to get caught up in this debate, but a good AVR is just as good as separates IME.
The reason I have separates is because if you were trying to build an HT in the 90's as I was, the technology was changing faster than I could change my socks. That would make a multi-thousand dollar AVR into an obsolete boat anchor in as little as a year if you entered the hobby at the "wrong" moment.
I got burned once when I spent way too much on a Dolby Pro-Logic AVR and literally months later the standard changed. The same with video inputs. Unless you shelled out 5 figures for a Theta Casablanca or something like that, the video standards changed rapidly from composite to SVHS to RGB to DVI and so on...
So the answer was a pre-pro and a separate amp.
MannyE
Exterminate!
I suppose there's degrees of boomy. A lot of movies are mixed heavy on the low end, and that's more or less what I didn't care for. It would sound good with one film, then I'd put on another and it was too much or too little bass. I never could get the sub to integrate absolutely seamlessly with the mains. I did take the time to set it up as well as I know how, and I was satisfied with it for years.. I just tried something else and liked it more. Who knows, maybe in the future I'll see a movie which makes me re-visit surround sound, I'm not closed minded to it. I suspect if I was into sci-fi and action movies, which are intended to be heard in surround, I'd change my tune.
Another consideration is I'm more a music guy than a movie guy, and having two systems in a room which is already full of furniture and other stuff is a bit overwhelming. If I win the lottery my next house will have a dedicated auditorium, but for now I have to be satisfied with what I've got
Ah! Well there are two key points there... IMO there's a point of diminishing returns when you aren't watching action or fantasy or sci-fi (all of which in one way or another are action films). If your tastes run to drama or let's just call them "non-action" then it makes a lot of sense that you prefer two channel for movies. In fact, I have a 2.1 setting I use for certain films like for example, anything made before surround existed if the remix is annoying (as it often is) regardless of genre.
The other is that your preference runs to music which of course means you probably get as annoyed as I do when music that should be in front of you suddenly moves to the back. For example, there are many multichannel music mixes that "put you on stage" which annoy the living hell out of me... I don't want to be on stage, I want to be in the audience.
The only thing I would suggest is to maybe explore the menu on the Denon because you may like the different surround settings. Most good AVRs have stereo, or even a bypass setting usually called "direct" or something that bypasses gimmickry of the electronics and outputs a clean stereo signal. My B&K has presets (way too many if you ask me
) for like 100 different listening scenarios. I have it so that I can switch between 5.1 and 3.1 and 2.1 with one click depending on what's going on. Also, if you haven't already, get a setup DVD and a Sound Level Meter to do the setup. You simply cannot trust your ears to set up the correct levels especially with the sub woofer. I was amazed at how loud a sub is before you can actually hear it. Using your ears and not a meter will 100% result in a sub woofer that's exponentially too loud.
Again, from your description of the sub being OK for some movies and too loud for others, I'm suspecting you might have not used a meter. Mostly because that's the same exact problem I had until I used one!
Ah! Well there are two key points there... IMO there's a point of diminishing returns when you aren't watching action or fantasy or sci-fi (all of which in one way or another are action films). If your tastes run to drama or let's just call them "non-action" then it makes a lot of sense that you prefer two channel for movies. In fact, I have a 2.1 setting I use for certain films like for example, anything made before surround existed if the remix is annoying (as it often is) regardless of genre.
The other is that your preference runs to music which of course means you probably get as annoyed as I do when music that should be in front of you suddenly moves to the back. For example, there are many multichannel music mixes that "put you on stage" which annoy the living hell out of me... I don't want to be on stage, I want to be in the audience.
The only thing I would suggest is to maybe explore the menu on the Denon because you may like the different surround settings. Most good AVRs have stereo, or even a bypass setting usually called "direct" or something that bypasses gimmickry of the electronics and outputs a clean stereo signal. My B&K has presets (way too many if you ask me
Also, if you haven't already, get a setup DVD and a Sound Level Meter to do the setup. You simply cannot trust your ears to set up the correct levels especially with the sub woofer. I was amazed at how loud a sub is before you can actually hear it. Using your ears and not a meter will 100% result in a sub woofer that's exponentially too loud.
Again, from your description of the sub being OK for some movies and too loud for others, I'm suspecting you might have not used a meter. Mostly because that's the same exact problem I had until I used one!
You raise a lot of good points, I think I need to revisit surround sound at some point. I didn't remove any wiring, it would be easy enough to put everything back where it was.
I do have both a setup DVD and a meter, but you're absolutely right, I didn't use them for the home theater system. I used the DVD mostly for setting up video stuff. It's possible to get almost obsessive with getting the picture set up, but I never devoted the same effort to the 5.1 sound system.
I always ran the Denon on 5.1 direct, bypassing all the nonsense processing inside the Denon. I never liked any of its internal settings, they all seemed gimmicky. When I first got it I liked them of course, but the novelty died down fast.
I think if I come across a center speakers which can match my mains, I can bring back the Denon, and the triad sub. It hasn't gone very far, it's just put away now.
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