The Roon Diaries - Tips & Tricks

[Alobar]

So I have been thinking about Roon, particularly how some have said its sound is "improved" somehow.
Here is what JRiver says about its audio output:

"Because the sound engineered into the CD is the sound you will hear when you play the audio. No changes are made to it by JRiver. Nothing will come between you and the recording."

So this has me wondering if Roon's better sound is due to it being actually more accurate to the source material, or does it change it to be in a way that colors it as less accurate?
I have spent a fair bit of time with my system through a DSP and other means to get a flat FR, and a sound that is neutral as possible (no tone controls etc). Then once I had that, I played with the sound slightly to suite my tastes. So it has me wondering how, if it really is true that they are pulling it off? Because for me, trying to get things neutral is a goal for me..

And I am asking this not because I have anything negative to say about Roon, and I have been considering it for my own system, but just want to get a sense of what's behind this "better" sound is all.

 

[Yamaki]

The same question has been plaguing me for some time. Once I got the opportunity to sit down and really listen, vs. tweaking on Roon setup and settings, I was struck by how it sounded different. I couldn't say, at first, that it was better as I've learned that different is not always better. But in the end I must say it does sound better.

I began wandering towards that rabbit hole of analysis to determine why it sounded better and then, just at the moment before I tumbled into the hole, I backed away and tried to quantify it for myself using my own ears which is, in my particular case, the measure that works best to accurately determine value to my specific needs.

I would not say it's color nor a departure from neutrality. A bad source still sounds bad from Roon. A good source still sounds good. The difference I hear is more detail as if there were notes within the source that did not achieve their intended fullness in time, timbre and space within JRiver.

It's not that JRiver didn't do its job because it did what it was designed to do. It's just that Roon is designed differently and that difference, at least to my ears, makes it sounds better. That, in the interests of objectivity, is what I hear. Others may hear, and perceive, it differently.

 

[Alobar]

Interesting @Yamaki thanks for your observation.

Now the next part to my decision to switch over is first, the money which for me is going to be substantial. Aside from the $500 for the program, there will be a new NAS drive, and a ssd drive.

But then since my PC is incapable of delivering good audio, I will at the minimum have to repurpose my raspberry pi to play Roon via DLNA from my PC and NAS drive. I'm not really good at figuring this stuff out and if I invest in Roon only to not get it to work on my system, that would be a real risk, one that I probably couldn't get it sorted out in just 2 weeks.

But I will keep it in the back of my mind for a time when I am less busy and am ready for a major change.

 

[Yamaki]

One financial bright spot is that you can sign up for one year at $119 and, if you sign up for a lifetime membership before that first year is up, there are coupons out there that get that first payment credited against the $499 lifetime membership.

I wasn't sure about the music server's ability to deliver on Roon's Core requirement but it did so with ease. You can set it up to run via DLNA on other devices. The Roon User's Guide has some good tips and tricks should you get a chance to peruse it.

I'd invest in whatever infrastructure you need before you download Roon to get an objective trial. It only took me a few hours to get everything set up and running in a basic fashion. The investment won't be wasted as you will be able to use it in any event.

 

[Wildcat]

So this has me wondering if Roon's better sound is due to it being actually more accurate to the source material, or does it change it to be in a way that colors it as less accurate?

I wonder about that also. Thing is, for me it would be comparing apples and oranges to cucumbers. I tend to play through my Oppo 105 using either DLNA or directly via network shares (accessing the files directly). JRiver I use as a DLNA control point, but also use it on my computer to play through its own audio driver and out to my desktop DAC.

So as far as Roon is concerned, I could theoretically send music via DLNA to the 105. Would the DLNA transport cause both to sound the same? Or is there still a difference? Now, if I were to compare a Roon endpoint into a DAC vs. sending DLNA (via JRiver) over a DAC, I would expect I might hear a difference. I don't know if Roon can be used as an actual player on a computer, but, if I put it head-to-head with JRiver through my desktop DAC (or better yet, use my laptop to feed USB to the DAC), would I hear a difference there?

I guess I just need a point of reference as to what the exact setup is where Roon was heard to sound different from others. I'm not really looking for which is better, but more out of curiosity. I believe that a Roon endpoint (in essence, a renderer) is really the way to go here, as their proprietary software probably is providing that "magic" that we aren't getting with other solutions.

Now the next part to my decision to switch over is first, the money which for me is going to be substantial. Aside from the $500 for the program, there will be a new NAS drive, and a ssd drive.

Setting up a NAS can get a little pricey--mine is four years old now, running two 4TB drives, which are nearly full. (High-res and SACD rips have eaten a lot of space, plus one of the drives is our video collection ripped to MKV files, including BluRay.) I currently have a Synology, which actually can be quite easy to set up and operate--they have put a lot of thought into making it user-friendly. QNAP has done the same, and I likely will go with them when I upgrade since they have more CPU horsepower and more memory to run these processes. I don't think Roon needs a very big SSD for its database, and you can often get a 256GB SSD for under $50 these days. Mount it in an external enclosure and attach via USB3, or mount it internally, and you're good to go.

And like @Yamaki says, even if you eventually don't go with Roon, there are plenty of other ways to stream from a network server, so it's not a lost cause at all.

I wasn't sure about the music server's ability to deliver on Roon's Core requirement but it did so with ease.

I'm a bit tight for CPU usage and memory on my four year old Synology, which is why I likely will go with a QNAP next time around. (Probably early next year, as I'm running out of space.) I have run multiple DLNA servers on it at the same time, however, and never had an issue. If Roon doesn't tax it all that much, it would be easy enough to load it up and take it for a spin one of these days.

 

[Yamaki]

Good post, @Wildcat

My system configuration remained static when I added Roon and compared it to JRiver:

NAS==(Ethernet)==>Music Server & Software==(USB)==>USB Reclocker==(USB)==>DAC-McIntosh D100==(Balanced XLR)==>MX135 pre-amp/processor

So besides changing software, everything else remained the same.

The Roon install package is about 57MB but I'm not sure what the total resource use is when fully installed and running.

 

[Wildcat]

Mine right now is more like NAS --> Ethernet --> Oppo 105 --> Preamp. So I am either using the 105 via DLNA or using it to access network files directly. The only way to add any sort of renderer to this combo is to add an external computer (even if it's just a RPi) and feed it through the USB port. My digital "end game" is a future purchase, but I have to plan ahead in order to make everything work the way I'd like it to. So, I don't really want to buy a less expensive DAC and a renderer (like MicroRendu) just to have Roon right now. Yet I'm using JRiver via DLNA to the 105, so I could still use Roon to the 105 the same way, I would think, and at least be able to use it until I upgraded.

It'll be interesting to see what we all come up with once more of us get Roon up and running.

 

[Yamaki]

So your Oppo is doing DAC duty as well. That should work. I've got an older Oppo and it worked well as a DAC in my system for a while.

 

[Wildcat]

DAC and streamer--plenty good enough for now. I had considered a Sonica DAC as an interim component (with a MicroRendu as the streamer) as that would get me DSD via the USB input, but that only sets me back further from my eventual goal for a higher-end DAC.

 

[Alobar]

I wonder about that also. Thing is, for me it would be comparing apples and oranges to cucumbers. I tend to play through my Oppo 105 using either DLNA or directly via network shares (accessing the files directly). JRiver I use as a DLNA control point, but also use it on my computer to play through its own audio driver and out to my desktop DAC.

So as far as Roon is concerned, I could theoretically send music via DLNA to the 105. Would the DLNA transport cause both to sound the same? Or is there still a difference? Now, if I were to compare a Roon endpoint into a DAC vs. sending DLNA (via JRiver) over a DAC, I would expect I might hear a difference. I don't know if Roon can be used as an actual player on a computer, but, if I put it head-to-head with JRiver through my desktop DAC (or better yet, use my laptop to feed USB to the DAC), would I hear a difference there?

I guess I just need a point of reference as to what the exact setup is where Roon was heard to sound different from others. I'm not really looking for which is better, but more out of curiosity. I believe that a Roon endpoint (in essence, a renderer) is really the way to go here, as their proprietary software probably is providing that "magic" that we aren't getting with other solutions.

There is another thread going about the OP saying his streaming radio station sounds better than his CD player. +48v said it could well be that the classical music station he listens to has some DSP in the output that gives it its difference in sound. It got me thinking, could Roon be doing this somehow? As my above post quoting JRiver says that they do absolutely nothing to the digital stream to make it sound different than a CD would, but then went on to point out its DSP Studio can make all sorts of changes to the sound if one chooses to use it..

Not really sure why this is bugging me, as we are always faced with a plethora of different audio components that makes subtle or not so subtle differences in the sound.. Heck half the fun for some is having different cartridges, tubes, even speakers and amplifiers and even vinyl releases to have a different sound.. Maybe my expectation that my digital music must be flat neutral is not very practical with all the other things going on in the signal, and room too. Still I like to have it as neutral as I can get it, and to let me do the tinkering if I feel it is needed.. Of course this is assuming Roon does something to the music to make it sound better.. Maybe they don't and is simply more accurate, or looking at all the Roon graphics makes the music seem better sounding.. I don't know.

 

[ldatlof]

If the OP is using Roon and JRiver as management software only and he is using the same player and he is getting different results, does that mean that either Roon and JRiver is not providing bit-perfect output?

 

[Yamaki]

There are a lot of settings in JRiver's DSP section that, frankly, are hard to decipher and use. I never had any luck making changes there. One memorable occasion occurred and I totally snuffed out all sound while trying to make changes. At that point I left it all alone.

 

[cpt_paranoia]

So this has me wondering if Roon's better sound is due to it being actually more accurate to the source material, or does it change it to be in a way that colors it as less accurate?

It can't be more accurate than a bit-perfect transmission of the original source material.

What it might be doing is some filtering, or upsampling and filtering, that make it sound 'nicer'. As you say, doing some colouring of the sound.

Same sort of argument as valves not being as 'pure' as solid state amps, but many people preferring the 'warmer' valve sound.

It would be nice if there was a definitive description of the data path from rendering engine to DAC stream, then we'd know what it was doing, and be able to control it. Maybe there is one; not being a Roon user, I don't know.

 

[Wildcat]

JRiver has so many options, it's hard to figure out what is what at times. I upgraded versions recently and had no sound--the upgrade does not transfer many things over. (And that's just one example.) I do know that during DLNA playback, some sound features like DSP are disabled. In essence, JRiver is simply acting as a glorified remote control, like any DLNA control point would do. As I understand it, the control point tells the server and renderer how to communicate--I'm thinking it tells the renderer to retrieve "file X" from the server (vs. pushing from the server, if that makes sense). Chromecast is very similar--when casting streaming content like YouTube, Netflix, Pandora, Deezer, etc., the phone or tablet is telling the Chromecast device to stream "X" from the service provider (which is in essence the "server"). That is how I figure that using DLNA will probably not result in a sonic difference (but as we know, anything is possible).

But if we set DLNA aside, there are so many variables that introduce themselves. Is JRiver set up properly? Is it sending out "bit perfect" from the original file, or is something being upsampled along the way (via DSP Studio)? Is it running on a computer, which is connected via USB to a DAC? Is the USB the same quality as that in the Roon endpoint (if they are different devices)? Same with Roon--is it upsampling? And, does it upsample better than JRiver if that's the case? Or is it running "bit perfect?" That is what will be interesting to compare here, once we all have our systems set up.

My biggest concern with any streamer or network player is that it just plays my files as-is, untouched by anything. If Roon does that for me, it's all good, no matter how it gets there.

 

[Alobar]

My jriver DLNA story is like you said the PC version of jriver pushes whichever file is next in line to my raspberry pi, but it does so much more too. All the playlist stuff, the metadata usage, smart list etc all happens at the PC (in my system). Yes the DSP stuff is switched off on the PC but I have access to it with the Rpi version of jriver (and can have any number of those ). In fact I do have DSP studio running on the Rpi, for sound leveling, and to ear tune my pretty flat frequency response by backing down the 1000 hz region about 4db.

 

[Alobar]

There are a lot of settings in JRiver's DSP section that, frankly, are hard to decipher and use. I never had any luck making changes there. One memorable occasion occurred and I totally snuffed out all sound while trying to make changes. At that point I left it all alone.

Hmm, I find it pretty easy to use for most stuff. At one point I had a bunch of peq's in it and that worked well. The part I couldn't figure out was how to use DSP studio for biamplification. There is a way but I couldn't get it. It was much easier to get a mini DSP and then that way everything is covered through it like the turntable etc.

 

[Yamaki]

Hmm, I find it pretty easy to use for most stuff. At one point I had a bunch of peq's in it and that worked well.

That's because you are smarter than I am!!!

 

[Alobar]

So onto Roon, how much difficulty is it to set up for the 2 weeks trial? Not going through with all the hardware upgrades but just to see it and play some music through it? One thing that I heard was that the file structure can't take more than one level and all my files are 2 level, artist/album.

 

[Yamaki]

It will take an hour or less to download and setup. It could take 4 or more hours to analyze your files.

What I would do is set up a file with a small selection of music to shorten the analysis time and allow you begin listening and/or tweaking as needed. You can always migrate all your music over to Roon Storage if you decide to keep the product.

I could not get Roon to drill down in the file structure on my NAS to get to specific artists and albums. The paths were:

NASXX\Music\FLAC\, NASXX\Music\Xmas\, & NASXX\Music\New Music\

So I created 3 new folders and the paths are:

NASXX\01 FLAC\, NASXX\02 XMAS\ & NASXX\03 New Music\

I shortened the path by one step and it worked.

I'd recommend when setting up your Storage under Settings you try your current path first.

 

[Alobar]

Well it's on my computer, and after a little head scratching I got it to find my music files on the NAS drive. No need to mess with the file structure I have as it seemed to figure it out but has only found 1300 tracks. Maybe the others are down another level in the file structure. Another possibility is that most of my music files were ripped into .ape files and Roon may not recognize them..

First impressions are that this will be fantastic for streaming. It shows much less plumbing" than jriver does. That can be a good thing maybe but iTunes doesn't show any plumbing either cuz it doesn't have any! Not sure how the depth level is on Roon's software, but I won't know until I dig for it, and that takes time with it.

That brings up the kind of software I tend to prefer. I like programs that have some real power and functionality ahd customization to them! (I taught myself how to use Autocad).. Easy to learn often means less depth and power, but I understand why people gravitate to it,because it's easy.

I played Roon for an hour or but it was impossible to do a fair sound quality comparison as my best dac is tied to the Rpi and I didn't feel like unplugging it and setting it up on Windows so the PC dac is just a Behringer UCA222. it's okay but not as good as my Modi multibit.

So after playing Roon for an hour or so I started getting restless with it because I had no access to my lists, and it made me realize how married I am to the way I listen, and it's probably why streaming hasn't worked out for me either.

So switching media players, at least in my case seems to mean having to redo all the playlists and custom fields in the metadata which is almost a deal breaker.

My first impressions are that I'm not ready to make this level of jump for a media player but it does give me a glimpse into all the visual goodies that Roon has as far as the artists bio's, lyrics and photos are concerned. There is quite a bit of info right in the program. Makes jriver seem like just a media player (although a hugely configurable one).

As for the information at your fingertips, it really doesn't mean that much to me. I simply use Shazam on my phone whenever I want to know something about an artist, or lyrics so that works for me.

I was a little disappointed in the volume control on Roon. With jriver and almost any other media player or streaming front end you just hover the cursor over the volume area on the screen and use the mouse wheel to rapidly adjust the volume. Roon has you dragging a slider which I fine less precise and easy. that's a small thing, but how I now listen to music is I keep the TV monitor mirrored to the PC and the mouse does nearly everything I need, including all the playlists work controlling menus etc.

But again the real beauty of Roon to me is seamless integration with streaming and drive music files. That it would seem is where jriver will never compete. But for the price I think I can get by without that,at least for now.