Best Vintage Preamp

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Not a put down sir; just stating the facts as mine and several other pairs of ears heard them. Fact is it's a $180 basic preamp that has bleed thru problems from an fm tuner into other sources while the fm tuner is turned on. Funny this does not happen on any of my Yamaha, Sansui,Soundcraftsmen, Marantz, Mac or the NAD1240 that made the grade as my main rig's pre for a while. Did I say any of them were the best no I don't believe I did as I'm sure there's far better out there than what I'm running and have run in the past. Perhaps we should have a recapped vintage pre-amp shoot out.........your recapped NAD 1020 vs. my Avionic C4?:)
I have a Marantz 7t that by some people is considered to be a top of the line preamp. It has bleed through when other sources are turned on. I posted a question regarding this a while back and it turns out that it is fairly common.
 
I would LOVE to do a vintage amp (or preamp) shoot out. I've always thought of having a mini AK-fest, I would hide the components, and have people listen to three of four different amps blind, and see what they thought sounded the best. To do this fairly, you would (I would) need to calibrate the volume controls with a test tone at least, so you know the amps are putting out the same power. Maybe I could do something like this when my wife moves out.

Lee.
 
If you're ever up this way Lee please stop by and we'll do this........ no need to wait till your "wife moves out". I presently have a bench full of test gear that I don't know how to use, a pair of identical amps and identical speakers as well. To make this as fair as possible we'll even have a fm tuner playing on another input and we'll gather data from both pre's with it on and with it off. May the best preamp win:)
 
I have used several preamps in my audio past- the stand outs to me were Crown SL2, Technics SU A8, Proton AP1000, and a couple of Yammies and Pioneer Spec 1. I only have a couple of these left, regrettin the sale of my SL2 the most it wa super sweet! Next to that the Technics SU A8 is an incredible pre but just as rare as the SL2!
DC
 
If you consider the early 90's to be vintage then the Audible Illusions pre amps are some of the best ever made. IMHO
 
I still run some vintage preamps - Audio Research SP-14 and Classe DR-7, and have used CJ PV5 and Counterpoint SA 7.1 among others, in the past.

Just picked up an Audiolab 8000Q to use in a small system (with a Bryston 2B) in the dining room, and will be trying out a CJ Premier 14 as preamp in the main system shortly.
 
Conrad Johnson PV tube models get my vote. As long as from the 80s in vintage :music:

Among the 80's era CJ my favorite was the Premier 3 preamp together w/ the HV 1 pre preamp . They can give the ARC SP 10 a run for the best preamp during their era/time.

930
 
The SP 10 was a very nice sounding preamp, but it had, for my taste, too many tubes - I helped a friend with one track down which of the 15 tubes had gone microphonic once.
They also did seven revisions, so unless you got a rev 7, you'd always be wondering if you really had the best sounding version!
 
WsJohn , if I can recall back in the late 80's I wrote Leonard of audio research (gave him the serial no.) and inquired if my SP10 was a MK1 or MK2 and I also wanted to know if there are upgrades available for my unit. He replied that my unit was a revised 7 C meaning it was the final iteration / version of the SP10 and no upgrades were necessary. I retubed the unit back in the 90's using tubes source from ARS w/ Sovtek 6922 LN ( low noise tubes ) tubes at $17 / tube back in the day . Until now when tube tested its around 90% according to my tech. I used it in my alternate system ( VPI HR-X , JMW 12.7, Lyra Kleos , arc D250 mk2 servo all tube power amp , Duntech Princess C5000 ) and it sounds sublime.
 
I can't say it's the best because I haven't heard everything mentioned in this thread but I truly love my recapped Apt Holman preamp and will keep it forever. It has a fantastic MM phono stage, tone controls that don't seem to be destructive and can be switched in and out. It also seems to sound equally great with tube and solid state amps.
 
Vintage means tubes to me,which means the original C-22. Though I would rather have a C-500T if it had tone controls. My favorite amp was easily the Mac 3500 which had at least a 1/4 the distortion of the other Mac amps and white washed any other tube amp. It sounded as good at 1/10 watt as it did at 400 + watts. It would make 3 AR-3 wired in parallel wake up and talk. Bozak Grands with 3500's were very dynamic. Move over Korner horns. Stanton was the default leader, because Ortofons MC couldn't track very well. B&O SP-12 was a nice compromise. Only the Empire 598 was to be the TT of choice, Though the SME tone arm was preferred. Vintage to me means, Bozak, JBL, EV, Altec, Klipsch and Tannoy. New England speakers with their limited dynamic range and point source directivity were A BIG TURN OFF. BOSE BACK THEN WAS AN ILLUSION AS IT IS TODAY.
 
Did anyone in the "vintage era" make a transformer-based volume control? I first heard about these from a Sam Telling column, where he tried a Music First (recent) model. I wonder when the idea started, who's was first, who's was best, and if they got any kudos, or were dissed/ignored...

I've had a restored Apt/Holman, but gave it to my brother after the phono stage went out and was repaired to my dissatisfaction, since he doesn't play records. Still have and use a Luxman C-1000. Both wonderful preamps, no question. So is the preamp half of my Luxman L-505u. I think my Promitheus TVC beats all three, however. Perhaps not by much, in the diminishing returns sense, but I don't see how one would get any more transparent. Mine was $560 new , including a +6dB option, and shipping from Kuala Lumpur. Have never had a TOTL tube pre, however.
 
I'd like to tell my assessment on all the preamps I have owned to date, lined up from the best to the so so and to the worst:

BEST List
1. McIntosh C11 (Absolute best to me for vinyl and CD, both. It is a C22 in another dressing. Its best feature was stepped tone adjustment, and LP/RIAA EQ switch.)
2. Audio Research SP-3 (Closest second best to the C11. Clear highs and stunning transparency, low noise, involving soundstage and details, also deep bass FR. Provides tone off switch, but tubes V4-V5 removable if tone unused. And absolute support from ARC with parts and updates still available. Sounds absolutely neutral yet dynamically involving and impactful when playing orchestral music, superb soundstage and holographic imaging. The best tubed phono stage in this list, on par with the Nak CA-7. Channel and tonal balances are easy to achieve with brief tube-rolling. Often sold used today at 3 times its original cost of arnd 500 USD. Still appreciating even in CL. It has the level of charm to make itself stay in my main system long-term. Down-side: not as high-class as the luxuriant and beautifully lit C11.)
3. CV PV-8 Phono version (Non-NFB circuitry provides cleanest sound output, cool looks, great machining and design. Tho' a bit clinically sounding to my taste, contrary to ppl's views that it sounds coloured.)
4. McIntosh MX113 (The Phono and Line preamp parts) (Sounds even better than its C26 preamp sibiling on contrast, with rich tone, deep bass, good 3D presentation, despite details a bit squashed in comparison with the AI M3A mentioned below)
5. Audible Illusions M3A (Separate PSU, low noise, clean sound but not too clinical, versitility with cartridge choice, relatively cheap to buy. But, not cheap for long-term use due to possibly more frequent tube replacement of those half dozn premium 6DJ8/6922, still available a couple of dollars on taobao on the rigid 6H11N EB/EV or 6H1N EB/EV version
6. Nakamichi CA-7(A) (All discrete component design, great build, best MC and MM section with gain, capacitance and load choices, great remote control. Warm sound comparable to C11, The best sound stage of all in this list, let down only by too much clinical detail. Think of it as "gold in gold out, trash in trash out". Good to hold up to IMHO newly made preamps up to 10K USD.)

SO-SO List
7a. McIntosh C20 (It might hv been only I who placed this model in a so-so list. During an age when more meant better, it runs on 2 x 12AX7 for its phono stage, and 2 12AU7 on its tone stage, then another 2 x 12AX7 on line stage, followed by a buffer stage on 1 x 12ax7 shared btwn L/R channels. Tho' one 6X4 tube provides good clean power to it, yet, among my 3 examples of the C20, none can keep its channel balance today, implying parts spec drift affecting performance. More so than other tube amps in this list. Huh you guessed it, tonal balances among mine get all over the place, measuring +/- 3 dB 50-20kHz on my amateur test bench. No amount of TFK ECC82/83 tube rolling can cure these, not even with new tubes from the New Sensor Group. I'd like to say it plays music with monosodium glutamate (MSG) like we see on "SOME" Chinese food. It compels you to fall in love immediately with whatever it is dressing, but the more you take it, the sicker you become with headache, swelling tongue, short breaths etc. Until you stop taking it. It has a special sibilance to its sound, not annoying but quite likeable in a way - the MSG I was referring to. And it has the most plethoric array of vinyl curve adjustment, and it even runs a good "loudness/controur" knob to tune the sound to your liking. But unlike the C11/C22 and the M7 T/C, its tone adjustments are non-stepped, meaning you cannot return to absolute flat every time you have moved them around. I'd like to think of the C20 as a special euphonizing spectacle that turns E. Taylor backwards 40 years in the beholder's eyes. If something plays even the slightest way of harsh thru it, that source is really BAD.)

7b. Heathkit WA-P2 (1955 mono design, most were kits built quality questionable. But if owered by modern rectifiers on DC heater 6.3V and 320V and LCRC with more generous capacitance, it is my preferred daily horse. Updatable on V3 from 12AUX/ECC82 to 6CG7/6FQ7 if PSU heater upped with 600mA more, to 1500mA or more. Sounds a bit like a McIntosh C-20, sweet tone and highs, good bass, and warmth overall, tho' details a bit lacking, background a bit more noisy and slightly less dynamic on line inputs. However, it gives very good vinyl curve support adjustable on the bass and the treble slopes to suit LP WES RIAA 78 45 etc. You may say, a cheap ticket to oooold oooolde vinyls and shellacs)
8. Yamaha C-2A, Nakamichi CA-5 II (similar sound style to CA-7, both well made on mostly discrete components, clean background, dynamic, but bass a bit lean on both less so on CA-7, otherwise superb as a daily run horse)
9. Heathkit SP-2 (If used on original Mullards EF86/12AU7/12AX7, it sounds better than WA-P2. Otherwise, still surprisingly good, but less warmth at mid-bass.)
10. McIntosh C-28 (My pristine used example didn't last my patience for 1 week. Then C11 back in. Funny, considering the MX113 with C26 preamp guts in, sounded better to me with rich tone and lovable texture. SIgh! C'est la vie. On ne sait pas pourquoi.)
11. Nikko Beta 20 (Close to Yammie C-2A performance with better bass "texture", read: not muddy. Mostly discrete components. Priced right, a good used work horse.)

Worst List
12. Hitachi (Lo-D) HCA-8500 (Thin and tinny mostly, but gracefully so and not grainy, but still enjoyable with vinyls thanks to its sweet phono stage)
13. NAD 1000 (What the thing is it about this? It didn't even last 1 hour on my test. Non-3-D, bass going shallow, though highs were slightly better.)
14. Nikko Beta 600 (The best on recording and EQ with Tape 1 and Tape 2 outputs individually switchable, and 2 processors' loops. Lit volume and tone knobs yell out 1980's style. I never like its all opamp circuitry, you know with the straight 8-pin ones. Which makes it not much worthy in terms of upgrading today. But for DJ, yes def'ly go for it.)
15. Dynaco PAS-X (What the fuss is all about it? I have 6 of these. None of them sound good enough to me. 2 dimensional, bad tone circuits, very bad PSU design. All of my examples give 9 VDC half-wave rect'd to its 12V heaters only!!!!! That is, even when I replaced the selenium rectumfrier with a silisone one. Gosh !!! Performance-wise, nothing good that I'd like frorm it. Not Hi-Fi to me at all. But as to Dependability and longevity, yea you bet.)
16. NAD 3020 Pre section (Sweet sound, but that's about it all. Good for background music, light Jazz and FM, say Andre Previn and Mancini the like)
17. NAD 1155 (Mine was the Proton-badged one. Good as a work horse, but HiFi, na......)
18. QUAD II (I returned my loaned example to my friend having declined to buy it cheaply from him. So much abt British sound to me then, until 15 years later when I got my Leak amps. The Quad II was blurred, nasal with voice ....... arghhhh .... Probably just that loaned example.)
19. NAD 1700 Tuner-Preamp (Initially I had liked it in my bedroom for its versatility, but when I moved it to my main system, it started to reveal shouty mids, insufficient bass, limited dynamics and worst of all, grainy trebles. It performs surprisingly well on AM extension and FM sensitivity, tho'. I guess it is the same as 1300 the preamp in its guts inside.)

Except the Quad and the NAD 1000, I still have them all now and I switch from one to another regularly, say twice a month, to enjoy them. I do mod them and maintain them to ensure their useability when called upon. Hahaha, yea I think I'm still fervently enjoying this hobby ever since the 80's.
 
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The late VTV guru Charles Kittleson & panel, touted the circuitry and sound of the Lafayette Kt-600 as one on the very best.
 
No offense, but do you realize how this statement is comparing apples to oranges? Correct me if I'm wrong, but you're comparing an original condition NAD 1020 or 1240 to a Yamaha C4 restored by Avionic. What do you do for drag racing? Compare a brand new Corvette against a Pinto dragged out of the junkyard?

I don't wanna gang up on any one or be the "Right Guy" on top, but folks will read about the c 4 pre and waste time with it,
if you want a extraordinary piece of furniture, with a learning curve for use, get a C -4
I got a c4 in original box in AA 111 condition cause they , good will.... could not figure out where to attach the speakers for
$ 35.00, I spent over a hundred having it refuber'ed, it had little use and zero probs, I put it on a "accustat power amp"
and it never achieved anything soniclly, so I took it to a hi end place and they let me put it on 3 systems, again it never did anything comparable to other equipment, way too many layers of circuit board talking to other layers, so many knobs and buttons at one put i could not get it to make sound cause something was set wrong.

the c-4 is for a certain type of enthusiast, and that type of enthusiast will have a very nice time with it
I gave mine away to a neighbor
 
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Hahaha, yea I think I'm still fervently enjoying this hobby ever since the 80's.

well i guess we can all dust our pants off and go home now. :yikes:
sound rating old stuff is tricky brother, unless its been in a fridge for 2 decades
"Your personal experience may vary"
my 23-4 years of use NAD and the one I just got almost never used don't even sound near being the same machines,
truly, I forgot what a fresh 1240 pre could do in terms of sounding natural and still detailed
 
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