TPA 3116 vs the tripaths

Good for you Jeff. Congratulations.

I think something like "sounds better" is probably a hard thing to measure objectively, especially given the whole chicken and egg thing in audio: should it sound like real music or should it convey what's on the actual recording.
Not sure if this a a response to my post on the same subject, so I'll answer as though it is and beg your indulgence if not.

I'm treating Allo's claim that there is a sweet spot as an open question, pending evidence.

If there is such a thing, it should be measurable with a calibrated microphone , which is more sensitive than our ears, and saves us having spiky conversations about whose ears have the most authority.

It is possible to measure accurately how far any amplifier deviates from complete transparency at different supply voltages with the right equipment. The claim of a sweet spot seems to say that the THD + N figure (deviation from ideal transparency in other words) is different in some important and measurable way at our sweet spot. Obviously different implementations will have their own systems attached, speakers, preamps and so on, but amps can be measured at different supply voltages in the same system.

It only matters (and only a bit) if the sweet spot isn't measurable. Because that would mean the theoretically ideal voltage would be 24V, which would in turn deliver two advantages. Marginally more volume headroom and better dynamics. By dynamics I mean a potentially greater contrast between loud and soft sounds amplified from the source material.
The overall average transparency doesn't matter particularly, just that the claimed sweet spot shows up as differences in transparency, using the source material (usually a frequency sweep) as a known reference signal.
 
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Poultrygeist,
Your information and guidance has been invaluable. Seriously great stuff. But I have to report and give my opinion. I thought the Volt+ was a giant killer because of how good it sounded. It's great for it's price. I really like it. But man, this NuForce STA-200 blows it away. I mean seriously destroys the Volt. It's not even in the same sport. My system has opened up so much. The ZU's love power. Its like someone took a bunch of blankets off of my speakers. So to be responsible, if you want great sound on a budget, Allo and FX Audio will be a great option. However if you want truly special and spectacular sound, well you know the saying. You get what you pay for.
 
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Schiit Audio Saga plus the NuForce STA-200 completely destroys the Allo Volt Plus and FC Audio. I mean seriously annihilates it. My system is sooooo much better.
 
Game over. The entire point of our conversations is transparency. And I am here to tell you. Spend a little more money and get significantly more. The Schiit Audio Saga and NuForce STA 200 has taken my system from good to blow my mind!
 
Not sure if this a a response to my post on the same subject, so I'll answer as though it is and beg your indulgence if not.

I'm treating Allo's claim that there is a sweet spot as an open question, pending evidence.

If there is such a thing, it should be measurable with a calibrated microphone , which is more sensitive than our ears, and saves us having spiky conversations about whose ears have the most authority.

It is possible to measure accurately how far any amplifier deviates from complete transparency at different supply voltages with the right equipment. The claim of a sweet spot seems to say that the THD + N figure (deviation from ideal transparency in other words) is different in some important and measurable way at our sweet spot. Obviously different implementations will have their own systems attached, speakers, preamps and so on, but amps can be measured at different supply voltages in the same system.

It only matters (and only a bit) if the sweet spot isn't measurable. Because that would mean the theoretically ideal voltage would be 24V, which would in turn deliver two advantages. Marginally more volume headroom and better dynamics. By dynamics I mean a potentially greater contrast between loud and soft sounds amplified from the source material.
The overall average transparency doesn't matter particularly, just that the claimed sweet spot shows up as differences in transparency, using the source material (usually a frequency sweep) as a known reference signal.


I'm not sure that lower THD will always = "better sounding". There's more to it than that. For one, music is incredibly complex and human hearing is very different from electronic measurement: we don't always process surprisingly large differences in distortion e.g. odd vs even harmonic distortion. Time or phase matters, dynamics, detail, aren't necessarily a function of thd and they contribute to what most people call a sense of "transparency." I also think that higher voltage may result in better dynamic range, but that's not necessarily the same thing as better dynamics; a lot of low power amps reproduce what they call "micro dynamics" really well.

Running the amp at higher voltage usually trades off linearity for output wattage. With many amps the "sweet spot" occurs somewhat lower than the maximum recommended input voltage. fwiw, I"m pretty sure that the volt+ D isn't at its highest level of linearity at 19.2 volts.
 
The spex for the operating parameters for the Allo are basically what Texas Instruments sez they are for the TPA3118, singly, or twinned as dual mono.
The NuForce amp is an 80 WPC rated dual mono class AB amp, whether BP or MOSFET not stated. Output devices are Exicon, close coupled smd design and construction evident. Given the open spaces for additional output devices, this appears to be the junior version of a series.
sta200-nuforce-4.jpg
And this;
http://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/optoma-nuforce-sta200-power-amplifier/
 
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Haven't got a system to so Stigmata Martyr. I do now! Stop chasing pos stuff and pony up a little more.
I have both amps which you have hilighted and I thank you for your valuable opinion. But blowing the volt-d out of the water is an opinion I can’t agree. I must say that the sta 200 has more dynamics yet at the upper level it has a tad of sibilance, while the volt-d in my opinion is superior in clarity. I like both amps they have their own characteristics of which gives me the luxury of having a choice. My volt-d and volt+ drives my Maggies .7 while the sta 200 drives my JBL Studio 590. So in conclusion the sta 200 is not so much superior but rather different with respect to the volt amps, after all one is a class AB amp while the other is a chip amp both having a different topology.. Is being different equates to being better?My $.02. Thanks
 
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None of us hear alike nor do we always value the same qualities of sound. I once owned these Zu Omens ( like Jeff ). I thought they sounded pretty good until I heard a pair of $100 Betsy drivers mounted on a flat board with pro woofers. With notes floating in space all over the room like a "live" concert I was hooked. Long story short I sold the Omens and started building cheap open baffles. The Zu's have that big room filling sound with nice dynamics and sound stage for a box speaker but lacked detail. If you want to hear spit in Mile's trumpet the big 10" Eminence guitar speaker struggles and the super tweeter comes in so high it's really an afterthought or marketing tool to get folks to accept a full range single driver speaker ( aka 1.5 way ). The fact they didn't work for me for those stated reason doesn't mean they wouldn't work for someone who values different qualities.

P6030038.jpg
 
I'm not sure that lower THD will always = "better sounding". There's more to it than that. For one, music is incredibly complex and human hearing is very different from electronic measurement: we don't always process surprisingly large differences in distortion e.g. odd vs even harmonic distortion. Time or phase matters, dynamics, detail, aren't necessarily a function of thd and they contribute to what most people call a sense of "transparency." I also think that higher voltage may result in better dynamic range, but that's not necessarily the same thing as better dynamics; a lot of low power amps reproduce what they call "micro dynamics" really well.

Running the amp at higher voltage usually trades off linearity for output wattage. With many amps the "sweet spot" occurs somewhat lower than the maximum recommended input voltage. fwiw, I"m pretty sure that the volt+ D isn't at its highest level of linearity at 19.2 volts.
I agree that THD is only one measure of sound quality. You may have noticed I go on a bit, so I cut a lot of waffle and keep it simple where I can. And my posts are still 3x too long but there you are. So i didn't mention other measures or ways to measure.

I'm simply asking about evidence for the claim that the sweet spot is at 19V as a property of the chip. I accept this may be the perceived sweet spot of an individual system, but that is not a big enough sample to make claims about the chip, or about the Allo product.
Is this sweet spot measurable? Linearity is measurable. Harmonics are measurable. I admit I don't know how to measure micro dynamics, but I'm just an amateur. Linearity vs Vin in class D amps is a different beast from A/Bs too.
If it is not measurable, exactly what kind of sweet spot are we talking about that causes us to buy 19V power supplies and ignore potentially better 24V ones?
I don't expect you to provide an answer, I was just wondering if anyone had come across any evidence.
 
Schiit Audio Saga plus the NuForce STA-200 completely destroys the Allo Volt Plus and FC Audio. I mean seriously annihilates it. My system is sooooo much better.

I think you need to go back to your Doctor; every few weeks or so you indulge in system hyperbole which supposedly puts the Volt/Volt D+ to shame, soon followed by a climbdown. Maybe your meds are having a cumulative effect which blows regularly. Either way, ask him to check your dosage.

HTH
 
chiit Audio Saga plus the NuForce STA-200 completely destroys the Allo Volt Plus and FC Audio. I mean seriously annihilates it. My system is sooooo much better.

I'm glad to hear that you found an amp that you're enjoying more. I did want to ask if you're volume matching between the 2 amps. For a-b testing, anything that plays louder tends to sound a lot better, at least initially. The louder amp will always sound more dynamic, more open, and livelier. If you went to a store and compared Quads to Klipschorns with the same amp at the same setting, your first impression would be that the Klipschorns had more detail, were more fun to listen to. This would especially be true if you're listening to 9 Inch Nails. fwiw, I suspect many people who listen to 9 Inch Nails want more absolute volume and a sense of the beat.

I suspect a 10" full range speaker, even a very efficient one, might not be the best match for what the Volt+ does well, especially if you're looking to rock out (you're still trying to control a pretty big magnet). Given your taste in music and choice of speakers, I'm pretty sure you're making the right choice with the nuforce. For your preferences, even with your very efficient speakers, I think class a/b is the way to go unless you can afford high power true class A.

My take is that the Volt+ is really more for folks who like SETs. They have bass, but I've never thought they do "Slam" very well. They also tend to be most magical in the midrange. I also don't think that's where a 10" full range is going to excel, though I'm sure the people at Zu will disagree with me. It's also the reason I listen to more rock and full orchestra when I switch from the Volt+D to the TPA 3255. and more chamber music, folk, and small group jazz with the Volt+D.
 
I'm simply asking about evidence for the claim that the sweet spot is at 19V as a property of the chip. I accept this may be the perceived sweet spot of an individual system, but that is not a big enough sample to make claims about the chip, or about the Allo product.
Is this sweet spot measurable? Linearity is measurable. Harmonics are measurable. I admit I don't know how to measure micro dynamics, but I'm just an amateur. Linearity vs Vin in class D amps is a different beast from A/Bs too.

Ah, I'm pretty sure that the Allo people just settled on 19.2 as a subjective matter as did I. I do think "sounds better" does depend a lot on how the listener values different tradeoffs. There are voltage settings where an amp is pretty much worse at everything, much like car engines running at too low or too high an rpm, but most of the time it's sweetness vs. dynamics. A lot of people like to run amps at the highest voltage that's still safe and stable and they'll swear that that's the best sounding point. When I was using the Astron at 13.6 volts, there were definitely things it did a little better than the Volt+ at 19 or 24 volts. For me, at 24 volts it was just a little edgy. At 13, it was a little too laid back. Those are subjective judgments only. It's not all voltage though: with a 12 volt battery it wasn't laid back at all.
 
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lol as a lesson in subjectivity. i think that the zu speaker is garbage and many others think that too:
http://noaudiophile.com/Zu/

I always tell prople to spend a little more and dont buy zu. life is too short for bad speakers.

but the point is that to each their own and if something is workjing for you and is making things better then more power to you, but you dont need to blindly prescribe it to everyone. for example i would never ask anyone to live with zu speakers.

as for the FX audio pre, it doesnt really add anything to my main rig as it has a tube amplifier with great sound. but it helps my yamaha integrated to sound a bit less dry. I am running it with
 
I'm not gonna rag on HifiJeff for finding his audio bliss. It's all about searching and trying and retrying until you hit your own personal sweet spot.

I just added tweeters to my own home made Betsy open baffles and it greatly opened the top end in a good way. With one Eminence alpha doing the low end I am happy, but I am looking at the Pure Audio project woofers as a possible upgrade. Selling my JungSon 55 lb amp on my second system to get an Allo +D amp. The search goes on....
 
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From the linked Zu speaker review:

"My kid tells me he loves the looks of them, and everything about them. Also confesses that all speakers sound the same to him. I've never been more disappointed."

Ouch! Poor kid must be tone deaf.
I don't foresee any audio hand me downs from Dad...
 
I wouldn't call the Zu Omens garbage but they are no doubt polarizing. Many owners absolutely love them while others don't. It takes some time to acclimate to the full range single driver sound and that's essentially what the Omens are. I hope no one would pass judgement on the Zu's or any other gear for that matter without an extended audition or better still ownership. My Lowthers are also polarizing but most critics are not owners. Sadly there's little opportunity to audition gear from internet companies so folks base their opinions on what others say.

IMHO the best qualities of the FX tube preamp come to light when paired with the Volt+D. I've tried the FX with my Bottlehead 2a3 mono blocks but now realize the cheap Nobsound passive is a better match. I think I may just stick with passive preamps for tube amps and tube preamps for class D amps.
 
I own omegas and single driver trsnsmission lines so im very familiar with full range singke driver concept and its sound. one could say im on board with the cocept fully.
 
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