Second guessing my upgrade choice

M

McRufus

AK Subscriber
Subscriber
Hi all - I've cobbled together a system over the past year or two, and now am able to consider upgrading components. I've got a U-turn orbit plus with an AT95e, a Schiit Mani phono pre, Yamaha CD changer, Yamaha RX-V757 in two channel mode, and a pair of Elac B6 with matching S8 sub. I'm seeking to improve the system. Here is my situation:

* I have roughly 600-1000 to work with (the extra 400 is amazon credit, which is limiting)
* I cannot upgrade the speakers/sub yet as they were recent gifts and getting new ones would sow discord in the home. (I realize this would be the logical upgrade).
* While I listen to mostly vinyl, I now realize how much digital music I have. I'm currently creating a digital server/streamer. I may not need a CD player if this works out. Regardless of my choice below, I will most likely upgrade the cart (and, if I don't spend much below, perhaps the TT itself - there are a couple of Dual 1229's available on CL for under 200).

My criteria points me to improving the receiver/amp. It seems the Yamaha R-N803 makes sense for me but I'm not 100 percent sold yet. Phono, Digital inputs, DAC, 100W in 8ohms, Sub out and bass management, headphone, Spotify, wifi, etc. It does pretty much everything I would need for 750 new or 550 refurbished. However, in terms of sound quality, would this be an upgrade from the AVR I currently use? If it's not a noticeable upgrade, I'd like other options.

I was also looking at the Emotiva PT-100/A-300. I'm actually going to the Emotiva plant tomorrow to check them out (I'm local). I was also looking at the Schiit Saga/Vidar/Bifrost, but that's a bit pricey. I've got a headphone system of Schiit components and have been happy.

If the above options won't significantly help me for the money, I'd consider used if you have recommendations. There is a NAD 2600/1700 or Mitsubishi MGA system on CL locally, or a Yaqin MC30L on BT also local. Both would require a DAC. These are just examples.

I have a system that works, so I'm willing to be patient and wait for the right gear.

Thoughts? And, thank you.
 
How long do you have to wait before upgrading the speakers?

I would wait until you can upgrade speakers before deciding on the best amp/receiver. Your choice of speaker will determine how much power you need and if any special considerations are needed.

I’ve owned the B6’s and wasn’t impressed by them. That’s not meant to insult your speakers - I just didn’t find them very resolving, so putting $ toward a new amp isn’t necessarily going to help you. The speakers make the biggest difference, so I would bide my time and save more $ and when it’s okay to change speakers, then see how much $ you have saved and then you can decide how much goes toward speakers and how much to amp.
 
The R-N803 would be my choice. It kills two birds with one stone. New amp and a DAC upgrade along with an extra phono pre for back up and built in streaming to boot.
 
https://www.amazon.com/Cambridge-Audio-CXA60-Integrated-Amplifier/dp/B00XQUQ8XO/ref=sr_1_8_sspa?crid=1PTUF82EUEFB6&keywords=cambridge+audio+cxa80&qid=1548045868&s=Electronics&sprefix=cambridge+audio+cxa,electronics,172&sr=1-8-spons&psc=1&smid=A2H3DYB5PUVNNI

I think your amp is an obvious upgrade candidate, too.

While it might be best to choose speakers first, that isn't the only way to go. Another is to buy a good-sounding amp, knowing that you will need to choose speakers within the capability of the amp. That need not be terribly limiting with all the speaker choices available these days. However, if you think you're likely to purchase electrostatic or panel speakers, then it's best to choose one that doubles down from 8 ohm loads to 4, says conventional wisdom and suggests Magnepan. With as much power as you can afford. Most of us can't integrate panel speakers into our spaces anyway.

https://www.amazon.com/Cambridge-CXA80-Integrated-Amp-Silver/dp/B00X7SUWLE/ref=sr_1_5?crid=1PTUF82EUEFB6&keywords=cambridge+audio+cxa80&qid=1548046631&s=Electronics&sprefix=cambridge+audio+cxa,electronics,172&sr=1-5

Though I haven't used either of these amps myself, I have been favorably impressed with the sound quality of past models from Cambridge, and they would be (have been, and still are) on my list of integrated amps to consider as I contemplate upgrading my bedroom system's amplification from the Yamaha A-S500 I now use. While neither of these meets the double-down spec, they do 1.5x-down, which is better than Yamaha. Not that it needs to with my Monitor Audio speakers, which are an easy smooth drive in the country, but I'm just a sick and spoiled puppy.

I've owned the Emotiva pre you are considering, and I would call it reasonably competent and good for minimum outlay, but not especially good-sounding. That was my opinion and experience with it, YMMV. Also had their best stereo pre (XSP-1Gen2), and sold it. Had a nice feature set, and was acceptably quiet, worked well, but didn't keep the spot sound-wise. I'd much rather have a good integrated amp than Emotiva separates. Even the A-S500 sounds better to me, and I was prepared to fall in love when I bought them, brand new. Color me unimpressed. Obviously, others will disagree with my assessment, so grain of salt.
 
captouch - I do have an alternate plan, and that is to move my current avr and the Elac's to the TV room, and essentially build another 2 channel system from scratch. That would allow me to 'do it right' and still keep the peace.

musichal - That was my original thinking - looking a few steps ahead, and getting an improved integrated, receiver, or amp/preamp that would be fine with the Elac's for now with the intention of upgrading speakers in the future.
 
McRufus said:
captouch - I do have an alternate plan, and that is to move my current avr and the Elac's to the TV room, and essentially build another 2 channel system from scratch. That would allow me to 'do it right' and still keep the peace.

musichal - That was my original thinking - looking a few steps ahead, and getting an improved integrated, receiver, or amp/preamp that would be fine with the Elac's for now with the intention of upgrading speakers in the future.
Click to expand...

You may well be surprised by much better sound from the ELACs with an amp upgrade. I've encountered such results many times over the years.
 
Hi all - I've been mulling this over all day during my therapy sessions (i.e. record store visits). I could easily move the AVR, CD, and the Elac's to the TV room and replace the cr-ppy soundbar system. This would improve the sound, and the bar for 'excellence' is much lower in that room (as you can tell with the soundbar). No serious listening in that room - just concert DVD's and background music. And - no cost out of pocket. That would leave me my entire budget to get speakers and an amp for my turntable. New plan - search for a vintage speaker/amp pairing under 600 or new under 1000 (amazon credit). I would, in essence, be improving two systems for the same budget.

Provided, of course, that the collective wisdom is that a vintage speaker/amp pairing with that budget is an improvement. Is it?
 
McRufus said:
Hi all - I've been mulling this over all day during my therapy sessions (i.e. record store visits). I could easily move the AVR, CD, and the Elac's to the TV room and replace the cr-ppy soundbar system. This would improve the sound, and the bar for 'excellence' is much lower in that room (as you can tell with the soundbar). No serious listening in that room - just concert DVD's and background music. And - no cost out of pocket. That would leave me my entire budget to get speakers and an amp for my turntable. New plan - search for a vintage speaker/amp pairing under 600 or new under 1000 (amazon credit). I would, in essence, be improving two systems for the same budget.

Provided, of course, that the collective wisdom is that a vintage speaker/amp pairing with that budget is an improvement. Is it?
Click to expand...

Using the $400 Amazon funds for an integrated amp and having $600 for used speakers should result in quite the upgrade. Or go 50/50 and add another hun to the amp budget, leaving five for speakers, too. If you check often on Amazon choosing Amazon Warehouse searching Integrated Amplifier often, then you may run into an open box type deal. Yeah, that's a good strategy, imo.

Where are you located? Some AKer near you might have something he'd sell.
 
Yeah, go with a new integrated. Then you can be super patient and see what might come along in terms of used speakers in your local market for cheap. Old electronics can be a bottomless pit of investment. Plus you get most of the current digital integration with it. Networking, streaming and DAC. If it has a good Phono in, all the better because you can still always get an outboard phono pre and hook it up later.
 
I'm in the "score a new integrated amp" camp ... I'd probably be checking the local Craigslist ads. I really like the older Yamaha integrated amps (70's and 80's) and some of the newly updated 2 channel stuff. $300-500 should produce something nice. I have read some favorable reviews on the 2 channel Cambridge stuff, so that might well be worth considering. I was pretty blown away by the Schitt DACs ... maybe find a used Bifrost.

So $400 for a used Yamaha integrated
and $350 for a used Schitt DAC

I would also consider finding a classic tubed integrated amp or receiver. Keep your eyes peeled for a Fisher 500c - I know it's a potential money trap but they have such a sweet sound. Might be able to find a solid, used 500c for $800 then save up for the DAC. Dynaco ST-70 and PAS 3 ... probably push the roof of your budget. To me, taking the step from newer SS stuff to older tubed equipment was really satisfying. It would likely depend on what kind of music you listen to and at what volume level. I also have a soft spot for some of the old Carver amps - find a 500m and a used classic Yamaha preamp. At your price point you have quite a few choices. I have owned a fair amount of Emotiva equipment - I currently have the XPS-1 Gen 2 in the garage and its fairly bland. I do have the XDA-2 DAC and really like it. I think they are a great value. I think I paid $150 for it - a real bargain. I have the XPS-1 matched with pro Carver amps (Z-1600). Good build quality but like I said, I haven't been blown away. Could just be the match up.

Then the other tweaks you can play with :

Speaker placement
Cartridge alignment
Good cables (reasonably)

Sure you can upgrade speakers but ELAC speakers are considered by many to be giant killers - Steve Guttenberg sure likes em :

Good luck
 
Just stumbled across this little gem :

https://echohifi.com/details/12666/Arcam_A75

I have no direct connection to Echo Audio but I have spent a ton of money in that store over the years. They are usually willing to ship gear but it probably wont last long. This might not fit what you're looking for but they get a fair amount of classic Yamaha/Pioneer/Sansui gear and Kurt's prices are often very competitive. Then there is US Audiomart and Audiogon which are loaded up with a myriad of integrated amp choices. I did a search on Amazon for the Schitt DAC but I found only headphone amps. Bummer - I have over a grand in Amazon points myself and it would have been a good direction for me to go as well. Never considered Amazon for gear.

I'd take my time and really work on getting your current system to sound as good as possible. Get real familiar with what you want your system to do that it doesn't currently do. What is it that you're unhappy with - to bright, too lively? To much bass or not enough, fatiguing non engaging sound. Does it image well? Is there a sweet spot in the room? Does it get loud enough?

Also, how long have you had the speakers? Have you given them a good break in?

These are all things I force myself through before I follow through with an upgrade. It also helps me identify when improvement has been made.
 
SPEC2man said:
Just stumbled across this little gem :

https://echohifi.com/details/12666/Arcam_A75

I have no direct connection to Echo Audio but I have spent a ton of money in that store over the years. They are usually willing to ship gear but it probably wont last long. This might not fit what you're looking for but they get a fair amount of classic Yamaha/Pioneer/Sansui gear and Kurt's prices are often very competitive. Then there is US Audiomart and Audiogon which are loaded up with a myriad of integrated amp choices. I did a search on Amazon for the Schitt DAC but I found only headphone amps. Bummer - I have over a grand in Amazon points myself and it would have been a good direction for me to go as well. Never considered Amazon for gear.

I'd take my time and really work on getting your current system to sound as good as possible. Get real familiar with what you want your system to do that it doesn't currently do. What is it that you're unhappy with - to bright, too lively? To much bass or not enough, fatiguing non engaging sound. Does it image well? Is there a sweet spot in the room? Does it get loud enough?

Also, how long have you had the speakers? Have you given them a good break in?

These are all things I force myself through before I follow through with an upgrade. It also helps me identify when improvement has been made.
Click to expand...
Check out your local "Letgo" app, the vintage gear listed there is usually cheaper than CL.
 
The original PS Audio Sprout (50WPC/DAC) is roughly $499. The new version with 100WPC a remote and even more input options is $599.
 
Thanks all - I appreciate the help. Musichal - I'm in Nashville. As a 'music town' there is some decent local gear on FB and CL. SPEC2man - I don't have anything against the Elac's, and am glad to keep them in the house for another system. Dr. Ears - great idea on the LetGo app - I did a quick check and most of the 'interesting' stuff is cross listed. JoeESP9 - depending on the speakers, I like the new Sprout for the setup as it checks several boxes.
 
Personnally, I find gear needs to match the genre music, room and volume played. Especially speakers, no one size fits all. Decide on keeping or changing speakers before changing amps. 2¢
 
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