Something shocking: Dynaco ST35 with EFB mods

Responding to my comment about the wisdom of GFIs, "+1 on the GFI. I have seen them protect against electrocution from unsafe equipment. I changed all of my outlets to GFIs for this reason and have installed them for others as well."



That's a very dismissive comment. To begin, I actually don't much worry about my AC equipment, particularly the older gear, because my outlets are GFIs and I use a GFI on the bench.

I installed the GFIs to not worry. Every once in a while I hear stories from someone I know about how one saved them, friend, or family from a shock or death. Particularly from miswired lamps, tools (drills and saws), kitchen appliances (toasters, blenders, and mixers), and the odd hot-chassis TV or radio.

I don't think it is a superior attitude to proclaim that one doesn't use safety devices. GFIs are inexpensive and do their job 24-7-365. Humans make mistakes. That's life. Safety devices—GFIs and Interlocks—prevent occasional lapses, as well as poorly made product errors, from being fatal. Anyone who works on old equipment should have GFI outlets. Even those who like to ride motorcycles over 100 MPH. Because when it comes to vacuum tube gear with a hot chassis , even luck has its limits.


I was responding to the “a GFI in every outlet” as being literally, every outlet. You obviously worried to some extent to have replaced them all.

Luck has nothing to do with it. It is developing habits of safe handling of electrical equipment such as the hot chassis. It is the same as handling firearms. You are taught from the beginning to always check if a gun is loaded before working on it. And always practice proper muzzle discipline.
 
I was responding to the “a GFI in every outlet” as being literally, every outlet. You obviously worried to some extent to have replaced them all.

I suspect you have not used GFIs in a home or apartment setting.

Fact 1: The apartment had two-wire outlets dating to the early 1960s which meant I could not attach 3-wire plugs without using those awful three-wire to two-wire adapters, which are unsafe and violate code, particularly for air conditioners. Of which I have two.
Fact 2: Each outlet was not only some ancient and crappy bakelite-like plastic, it had oxidized contacts, and was, as a bonus, slathered in enough lead paint on them to look like bulges on the wall instead of outlets. Plugs did not properly fit into them.
Fact 3: The copper wire itself was oxidized (nearly fifty years old) and had to be cleaned to ensure low-resistance contacts with the new outlets.
Fact 4: While some outlets were in a room were daisy chained, others were fed from different rooms. It was wired by some crackhead, and approved by a bribed building inspector, which was pretty much standard for NYC in those days.
Fact 5: If one daisy-chains regular outlets and GFIs and one fires, one must hunt down which GFI tripped. If each outlet is a GFI no such search is required.

THEREFORE, I was changing all outlets from 2-wire outlets to three-wire ones, AND using GFIs for safety.

As long as I was upgrading every single outlet, I did the job right as the incremental cost for the GFI was trivial. Particularly compared to my time. Hence the full conversion. That way even if the breaker panel was rewired—as it was when I switched from fuses to breakers—the protection is maintained even if the wiring changed.

I correctly spec and review jobs, which is why I am often asked tor review contracting jobs. I'm not one of those bozo boys who does half-assed electrical wiring, burns down a house, and gets hit with a manslaughter conviction. You do what you want in your home, but you should not criticize my following both the electric code and generally accepted industry practices. The incremental cost is trivial for correctly doing the job, particularly compared to the labor cost.

By sniping at me you are not being more sophisticated or showing off your macho recklessness, you're just showing that you prefer to cut corners because you don't believe that GFIs matter. Well, some people believe in flat earth or that Elvis is living in Topeka. Whatever, dude. This is why both health and life insurance exist.

I note that the electrical code first required GFIs for kitchens and bathrooms, and then for everything else. Varies state by state, but it is moving in the direction of full coverage.

My car has five airbags and is one of the safest in its class. I know people who've been injured in accidents (hit while stopped at a light, can't get less at fault than that) because the car didn't properly crumple or have an airbag in the right place. I've stopped at the scene of accidents and seen the difference. (I live in one of the most congested regions in the northeast, and people here drive like maniacs on speed and LSD, so YMMV.)

Luck has nothing to do with it. It is developing habits of safe handling of electrical equipment such as the hot chassis. It is the same as handling firearms. You are taught from the beginning to always check if a gun is loaded before working on it. And always practice proper muzzle discipline.

This is NOTHING like handling a firearm. The issue is electrical component failures or plug reversals in vacuum tube equipment.

Again, unknown shorts exist in equipment and plugs may be reversed. It is best to have a GFI. This way even if one has failed to measure the voltage to a chassis each time before use, because, really, who does that?, or is distracted the hazard is still protected against.
 
I suspect you have not used GFIs in a home or apartment setting.

Fact 1: The apartment had two-wire outlets dating to the early 1960s which meant I could not attach 3-wire plugs without using those awful three-wire to two-wire adapters, which are unsafe and violate code, particularly for air conditioners. Of which I have two.
Fact 2: Each outlet was not only some ancient and crappy bakelite-like plastic, it had oxidized contacts, and was, as a bonus, slathered in enough lead paint on them to look like bulges on the wall instead of outlets. Plugs did not properly fit into them.
Fact 3: The copper wire itself was oxidized (nearly fifty years old) and had to be cleaned to ensure low-resistance contacts with the new outlets.
Fact 4: While some outlets were in a room were daisy chained, others were fed from different rooms. It was wired by some crackhead, and approved by a bribed building inspector, which was pretty much standard for NYC in those days.
Fact 5: If one daisy-chains regular outlets and GFIs and one fires, one must hunt down which GFI tripped. If each outlet is a GFI no such search is required.

THEREFORE, I was changing all outlets from 2-wire outlets to three-wire ones, AND using GFIs for safety.

As long as I was upgrading every single outlet, I did the job right as the incremental cost for the GFI was trivial. Particularly compared to my time. Hence the full conversion. That way even if the breaker panel was rewired—as it was when I switched from fuses to breakers—the protection is maintained even if the wiring changed.

I correctly spec and review jobs, which is why I am often asked tor review contracting jobs. I'm not one of those bozo boys who does half-assed electrical wiring, burns down a house, and gets hit with a manslaughter conviction. You do what you want in your home, but you should not criticize my following both the electric code and generally accepted industry practices. The incremental cost is trivial for correctly doing the job, particularly compared to the labor cost.

By sniping at me you are not being more sophisticated or showing off your macho recklessness, you're just showing that you prefer to cut corners because you don't believe that GFIs matter. Well, some people believe in flat earth or that Elvis is living in Topeka. Whatever, dude. This is why both health and life insurance exist.

I note that the electrical code first required GFIs for kitchens and bathrooms, and then for everything else. Varies state by state, but it is moving in the direction of full coverage.

My car has five airbags and is one of the safest in its class. I know people who've been injured in accidents (hit while stopped at a light, can't get less at fault than that) because the car didn't properly crumple or have an airbag in the right place. I've stopped at the scene of accidents and seen the difference. (I live in one of the most congested regions in the northeast, and people here drive like maniacs on speed and LSD, so YMMV.)



This is NOTHING like handling a firearm. The issue is electrical component failures or plug reversals in vacuum tube equipment.

Again, unknown shorts exist in equipment and plugs may be reversed. It is best to have a GFI. This way even if one has failed to measure the voltage to a chassis each time before use, because, really, who does that?, or is distracted the hazard is still protected against.

I use GFI outlets in the kitchen and bathrooms. My house even though built in 1960, has a three conductor wiring throughout. I have plenty of experience with homes built in before 1940. I have owned two of them. Whenever I needed to replace a worn outlet, I replaced it with a two conductor outlet.

It is like firearms in that you develop a habit of making sure the system is safe, be it firearm or hot chassis radio. You asked who checks the voltage each time before use, I do!

Airbags? If they are there, fine. But when the system no longer works, it is time for them to be removed. I have a truck where the airbag work system works about every other day. :D
 
Did not get to this until this morning, foolishly thought I'd look at it Thursday, which (duh) was Valentines day, so there was there was more flowers/dinner action than DMM action :)

Have you pinged Dave? he has been very responsive to me when I had questions on using his boards.
This I will do.

Also I suppose its worth verifying whatever was plugged in as a source isn't the actual problem since the RCA jacks should be tied to chassis somewhere along the way. Leakage from the source would show up on the chassis of the power amp.
No source has been plugged in yet. Just some dummy resistors on the 8 ohm tap, which I understand is best practice.

Have you checked over the bias supply circuit?
What do you mean by 'check the bias supply'? Details please.

There's nothing on the primary side of the power transformer except a fuse and line cord in this model. Have you checked DC resistance between primary and chassis? It should be infinite on a standard ohmmeter.

Primary side would be either of the two red wires at the bottom terminal strip? From those points to the chassis I'm reading ~70 ohms on both (slightly lower on one).
Hope it's not a bad PT, this thing is brand new.
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Try hooking a 10k, 2w resistor between the outlet Earth (aka ground) and the chassis. If you still read 47v, that's a 4.7ma leak which is dangerous. If it drops way down to a volt or two, it's just slight leakage and the 3 prong cable should alleviate it.
BTW, get a portable GFCI outlet for the bench. It will blow on an Earth fault.
I don't have a 10k 2W resistor. I have other high power resistors, though. Is there a range that would work?
 
Any range between say 5k to 15k will work. 2 to 5 watt.

There is no negative bias supply on this amp. From a topology perspective it is cathode biased, although the EFB mod makes it behave like a fixed bias amp.

I'd start by eliminating scenarios that are not probable causes. For example removing all tubes and powering it up. If the voltage is still measured between chassis and earth it's very likely in the power supply. If measured voltage suddenly drops to zero when tubes are removed then its something in the secondary, audio portion of the circuit, or in the rectification stage.

Anyway thinking up scenarios like this and testing them will help narrow down where to focus.

You might need to temporarily unsolder connections to see the difference in behavior to help narrow it down.

Another test you could try is remove all tubes and power it up with a dim bulb tester to lend some clues.
 
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The red wires on the terminal strip are the HV secondary, the center tap of which is grounded to chassis. The primary winding is the one the power cord is connected to. So measure the resistance to chassis again from either side of the power cord wires.
 
What do you mean by 'check the bias supply'? Details please.

It doesn't have one. In stock form its cathode bias, in EFB form the regulator takes the place of the cathode resistor, There is no winding on the transformer for a bias voltage source.

The only thing that looks visually questionable is the brown and white wire pair running under the fuse holder. I can't tell how close those might actually be to the power cord connection. It may be fine, just the angle doesn't tell me. Those should be heater supply, and the heater circuit references to chassis somewhere.

I have experienced leakage with old and dirty terminal strips. usually ancient gear with wax and dirt on the insulating material, it can create a very high resistance leakage path. Generally not enough to be an issue but it could be enough to measure with a DMM.
 
The red wires on the terminal strip are the HV secondary, the center tap of which is grounded to chassis. The primary winding is the one the power cord is connected to. So measure the resistance to chassis again from either side of the power cord wires.

Oh OK. Open circuit between those points (as it should be, I understand)

Did you spray any Deox into the power switch or fuse holder?

No DeOxit has befouled this amp.

The only thing that looks visually questionable is the brown and white wire pair running under the fuse holder. I can't tell how close those might actually be to the power cord connection. It may be fine, just the angle doesn't tell me. Those should be heater supply, and the heater circuit references to chassis somewhere.
I have experienced leakage with old and dirty terminal strips. usually ancient gear with wax and dirt on the insulating material, it can create a very high resistance leakage path. Generally not enough to be an issue but it could be enough to measure with a DMM.

Yeah the heater supply is pretty close to the fuse holder, less than 1/4". Is that a concern? Just for grins I checked resistance between all terminal on the terminal strip. All measure open.

Try hooking a 10k, 2w resistor between the outlet Earth (aka ground) and the chassis. If you still read 47v, that's a 4.7ma leak which is dangerous. If it drops way down to a volt or two, it's just slight leakage and the 3 prong cable should alleviate it.
BTW, get a portable GFCI outlet for the bench. It will blow on an Earth fault.

I cobbled together a 5k 5w resistor, connected that between the ground wire of the outlet strip and the chassis. Now reading 0.05 VAC. Is there something goofy with my bench supply?
Is a 3-prong cable is safe to do in this situation?
 
That's an interesting point.
I seem to remember someone saying they did a upgrade (or perhaps a new build) a while back and had a functional issue due to stock jacks being physically tied to the chassis and upgraded not.
Making that connection solved the issue.
I don't remember who did the build.
I'm thinking it was Tom (wharfcreek?)
That inherited the amp for fixing.
Not sure.
Maybe I have the facts crossed:idea:
That was me with a new build, and otherwise you've got your facts right. The effect of this was a smoking bias resistor.
 
Is there something goofy with my bench supply?
Is a 3-prong cable is safe to do in this situation?
Bench supplies are typically floating meaning they have no ground reference until you provide one. Depending on how you connected the bench supply to the amp may explain this behavior. There should be a ground connection from the bench supply to the circuit ground and then there should be one wire from the circuit ground of the amp to chassis. Chassis should then be earthed if using a three prong plug in the amp. Earth on bench supply and earth on chassis should reference same "earth."
 
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I added a three-wire cord and everything is working as designed. Adjusted the bias current and it's playing with no issues now.

I would have probably more accurately characterised the initial problem as a 'tingle' rather than a 'jolt'. I'm just very wary of tube circuits given the voltages, which I guess is healthy. When I first started working on tube stuff (within the past ten years or so) I read some posts about all the bad things that can happen to a human when sticking body parts into electronics with high voltages, and that's kind of stuck with me (the poor guy working on the microwave was the worst)

So electricity where I'm not expecting it causes me to be kinda wary.

Thanks for all the input. Now onto the Pilot SA-260! Or maybe figure out what's wrong with the Knight amp rebuild, or tackle the hum in the Altec1569a. If I'm really ambitious I could start on the Scott 399.

Or maybe just build a fire and watch the snow fall.
 
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My Pilot SA-260 went on a bit of a world tour today. EH tubes, JJ tubes, and Shugang. None of them sounded bad but of the three I prefer the EH 6CA7's. Its a nice sounding amp once its together, but it is something of a pain to actually work on. The physical layout in that thing makes it kind of difficult.
 
Well that’s good to hear, as the tubes I have for the Pilot are Electro-Harmonics.

It will probably be a bit before I get to the point of comparing tubes. Right now it’s just all the hardware mounted on the chassis, no wires or resistors or caps (except the cans)

“Some assembly required”
 
In my experience, I always expected some primary to chassis ground leakage with "vintage" iron core power transformer gear.
 
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