ELAC Miracord TT -share all about 'em

Thanks for the input! I’d assumed an issue with the RCA jack into the tt because the hum goes away if I wiggle the cord and get it just right. It happens with the oem cord, but I can make it go away if I wiggle it right and get it to stay put. Happened all the time with the 12 foot rca cord no matter what I did, but I’m wondering if it’s maybe because I was trying to use too big of a cord.
Tim D, the turntable seems to be grounded through the RCA cord. Is there a way that I should try to add a ground to it? Where would I connect it? I’m worried I’m gonna get out of my depth and have to hire someone who knows what they’re doing soon!

Tillotl, when you shorten your RCA, if you still have a hum try reversing the power cord (since those old cords aren't polarized).
 
Jumping into the Epic Elac thread to say I've been working on an 820 the last few days. It seems to be the same as the 810 and 830. Anyone else own one?
 
I have recently refurbished an ELAC 40A that had been in my parents house since purchase in 1970. Labeled Radio Shack with a walnut veneer base. I remember its performance declining and it was put away into a closet for 25 years.
With terrific support and help from Barncats, Vinylmaster & Mrow2, I have dissembled and relubed the toothed cam wheel, links, pivots, motor bearing, platter bearing, etc.

A final success came by gaping the tonearm brake 1mm as directed by the service manual. The pin was originally touching the tonearm brake and this tension caused the tonearm to bind and repeat playing the same groove over and again. Once the spring-loaded brake pin was backed up to the specified 1mm, the TT worked mechanically as intended.
Got everything to mechanically function properly and the cueing operated correctly.

The 60Hz motor initially came up to correct speed as tested with Turntablator but then proceeded to decline dramatically. This was remedied by removing and disassembling the motor and removing/cleaning the commutator with alcohol and Deoxit.
Put back together and speed is correct and sound is very good using a 760-DE stylus in a Shure/RS cartridge.

However - Once speed was normalized, a cueing issue emerged. The unit now starts and runs correctly, successfully cueing and playing a 33 LP all the way through.
The New Problem is that on shut-off the tone arm returns to the resting stand - hovers - and then moves forward past the stand inwards towards the platter, dropping the tonearm between rest stand and the platter unless you catch it by hand or raise the cueing lever. This is new.

Any Ideas or Suggestions? I've had this device together and apart a dozen times now and thought all was well lubed and positioned.
If I run it fast on 78rpm it problem begins to correct itself but problem returns when operating at 33rpm.

Thanks in Advance!
Not sure if 40A is similar enough to the 50H or not, but I ran into this problem on my 50H when trying to adjust set down location. If I set the set down the location where I wanted it (further in on lead in the groove) then the arm wouldn't drop correctly on the stand. Adjusting set down further back on lead in the groove would place it dead nuts. Not sure if this is your problem or not but just spitballing.
 
SOLUTION FOR THE DREADED "MY TABLE REPEAT PLAYS AFTER STOP BUTTON IS PRESSED" WHEN IN "MULTI-PLAY MODE" OR "SINGLE SPINDLE UPSIDE DOWN REPEAT MODE" AFTER A DISASSEMBLY, CLEANING AND RELUBE

I wanted to share a solution I found for a common problem that crops up if you take these units apart, clean and relube them. Most folks who have serviced their table may not even realize they have this problem unless they use the multi-play changer spindle or the single play spindle in upside down repeat mode.

I think ELAC used the same basic mechanism throughout the 1960s and 1970s, so this solution should apply to the 10, 40, 50 and 770 models.

If you have taken your table apart to clean old dried grease and relube, I would strongly encourage you to test steps one and two below to see if your table now has this baffling problem.

OVERVIEW OF THE PROBLEM

1. REPEAT MODE (single spindle). If the single play spindle is upside down, you are in repeat mode. Basically, ELAC designed the mechanism so you can automatically replay an album ad infinitum if you wish by simply inserting the spindle upside down. It's a very cool feature. A proper functioning table allows you to press stop once to stop the repeat cycle, bring the tonearm to rest and turn off. But after cleaning and reassembly, you may have to press the stop button TWICE to end the repeat cycle. If your table has this problem, pressing stop once will cause an errant repeat play cycle to occur.
2. CHANGER MODE (multi-play spindle). With a stack of records on the multi-play changer spindle, a proper functioning table allows you to press stop once to bring the tonearm to rest and turn off. But after cleaning and reassembly, you may have to press the stop button TWICE. If your table has this problem, pressing stop once will cause an errant repeat play cycle to occur.

CAUSE

There is a required micro tolerance of 0.3 mm, and the trace pin catch lever (part 156) that engages a pawl (part 177) can and will get out of whack after taking the unit apart for cleaning and subsequent reassembly. Any deviation from the micro-tolerance causes the problem.

SOLUTION

Adjust a wire spring (part 45) so the catch lever is properly aligned. The adjustment is extremely minute, but it will make the difference between the arm resting after the stop button is pressed (again, when in "repeat" or "multi-play" mode) or errantly repeating play a 2nd time. I had to nudge the lever in half mm increments and test each new position until it was properly aligned.

I've added notations to a service manual diagram and a photo below. Looking down at the turntable, the adjustment is just to the left of the tonearm.

pawl1 copy.jpg

IMG_2077.jpg
 
Last edited:
RE: SUITABLE MODERN SUBSTITUTES FOR UNOBTAINIUM (?) ELAC PLATTER BEARING LUBRICANTS FOR QUIETEST POSSIBLE OPERATION

PROBLEM OVERVIEW

I've read reports that white lithium grease is not ideal for Elac platter bearings and may result in bearing noise (audible between tracks). I can hear what appears to be bearing noise between tracks on my Elac after using white lithium grease. It's possible that what Elac recommended to lube/grease the platter bearing has significantly different physical properties than white lithium grease.

Since most folks here are using white lithium grease, it's worthwhile to determine if other lubricants can deliver superior performance with respect to minimizing platter bearing noise during playback.

WHAT ELAC ORIGINALLY SPECIFIED FOR THE PLATTER BEARING

The Elac Service Manuals state:

  • Turntable seat: "M55 = Millcot + 10% Molykote High Pressure Additive M 55"

In the Elac 10 and Elac 50, "Millcot" apparently referred to grade K50 and K40, respectively. (see screen captures from service manuals below)

ANALYSIS:

  • I take it to mean that Elac is recommending a mix of 90% Millcot K50 or K40, plus 10% Molykote M 55.
  • Am I reading the Elac service manuals correctly about blending these two products?

MODERN DAY PRODUCTS USING MILLCOT AND MOLYKOTE

1. Millcot -- Exxon Mobil still markets a product call Millcot. See here: https://www.mobil.com/english-ca/industrial/pds/iocamillcot-k
Mobile doesn't appear to market K40 and K50 that ELAC recommended, but they do make K68, K100 and K220. https://www.mobil.com/english-ca/industrial/pds/iocamillcot-k

Marketing description of currently available Millcot products:

  • Millcot K 68 oil is a very versatile product for use on a wide variety of textile machinery such as carding machines, looms, and spinning machine parts other than spindles. Millcot K 100 is a product suitable for heavily loaded applications such as comb boxes, cams, bearings and sliding surfaces on many types of textile production machinery.
  • Millcot K 220 can replace Millcot K 68 or K 100 under high ambient operating conditions or where loads, speeds, wear and leakage factors favor an SAE 50 viscosity. Millcot K 100 and Millcot K 220 are also very suitable for many semi-enclosed gear applications on textile machinery.
  • Millcot K 100 is used on overhead conveyor or equipment at airport terminals where dripping oil would soil freight or baggage. Intermittently lubricated equipment, such as packaging machinery or printing presses, should be lubricated by a Millcot K grade of oil.

2. Molykote -- DuPont still markets a product called Molykote.


ARE DUAL PLATTER BEARINGS SIMILAR TO ELAC?

Did the Duals have thrust bearing similar to Elacs? It seems like a lot of Dual owners are using modern day Shell Gadus S2 grease (formerly known as Alvania grease). http://tdc.ge/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/6_GADUS_S2_V220_2.pdf

CONCLUSION

The currently available Millcot K68 is SAE 20. Is K68 close to the specifications of the now unavailable K40 and K50 that Elac recommended back in the 1960s?

If so, would a modern day mixture of 90% SAE 20 (3 in 1 blue label oil) and 10% Molykote M55 best approximate the original formulation that Elac recommended to achieve the quietest possible platter thrust bearing?
Below: excerpts from the Elac 10/H and Elac 50H service manuals.

elac10lubrication.jpg

elac50lubrication.jpg
 
Last edited:
PLATTER BEARING LUBRICATION PART DEUX

Anyone here fluent in German?

I found this vintage German (oil equivalency?) chart. Looks like it is saying that an equivalent for Esso Millcot K50 was / is Mobile Vactra Oil No. 2. Am I reading this correctly?

german.jpg


Mobile Vactra Oil No. 2 is still made. https://www.mobil.com/en/industrial/lubricants/products/mobil-vactra-oil-no-2

Marketing copy below:

The Mobil Vactra™ Oil Numbered Series are premium-quality slideway lubricants specifically designed to meet the requirements for accuracy, aqueous coolant separability, and equipment protection of precision machine tools.

The Mobil Vactra Oil Numbered Series is carefully formulated from high-quality base stocks and performance balanced with an advanced additive system that provides controlled frictional properties, compatibility with aqueous metal working fluids and corrosion protection of parts and equipment. The unique additive package provides exceptional frictional properties on a wide variety of way materials, including steel on steel and steel on polymer, reducing stick-slip and chatter. This allows smooth, uniform motion at design travel speeds enhancing machine productivity and accuracy helping to prolong tool life and enhance surface finish. The Mobil Vactra Oil Numbered Series has been optimized to provide separability from many aqueous coolants while minimizing the corrosive effects of high pH coolants on lubricated surfaces

CONCLUSION

Looks like Mobile Vactra Oil No. 2 is ISO 68 -- just like Mobile Millcot K68. So is 3 in 1 oil (SAE 20) a suitable replacement for either the Millcot K68 or the Vactra No. 2? Or do the Millcot and Vactra have special additives and properties that the 3 in 1 does not?
 
Last edited:
ELAC PLATTER BEARING LUBRICATION PART THREE

More progress. I found a long list of oils comparable to Millcot K68. https://www.alexisoil.com/shop/other-industrial-3/way-lubricant-iso-68-5-gal-pail/

It would appear that Millcot K68 is a slideway type oil.

The problem is a lot of this stuff is only sold in large buckets and too expensive for a single use application.

Is there a cost effective slideway type oil sold in a small container?

DESCRIPTION

CHEVRON WAY LUBRICANT ISO 68 (5 GAL PAIL)

Chevron Way Lubricants are high quality lubricants designed to meet the critical lubrication demands for the slides and ways of machine tools.

Chevron Comparable to:

Castrol MAGNA BD 68

Conoco Hydroclear™ TCS Slideway Lubricant 68

Conoco Multi-Way Machine Lubricant 68

Conoco TCS Slideway Lubricant 68

D-A Way Lube 68

Esso MILLCOT® K68

Exxon Febis® K 68

Jax Way-Tac Fluid 68

Lubriplate No. 3V Machine Oil

Mobil Vactra® Oil No. 2

Mobil Vacuoline® Oil 1409

Mystik Power Lubricants® Way Oil ISO 68

Pennzoil TABLEWAYS® 68

Petro-Canada Accuflo TK Oil 68

Primrose #203 Primrose Plus Machine & Way Oil AGMA 2

Shell TONNA® S2 MX 68

Shell TONNA® S3 M 68

Texaco Way Lubricant 68

Total Drosera MS 68

Ultramar Ultraway 68

Whitmore’s SWO Machine Way Oil 68
 
PLATTER BEARING LUBRICATION PART FOUR

Ok - I think I've figured out the modern day version of "Molykote High Pressure Additive M 55" that ELAC specified for quiet operation of the platter thrust bearing.

Du Pont has multiple Molykote 55 products. Disregard the Molykote 55 O ring grease mentioned in an earlier post.

I just found this other DuPont product called "MOLYKOTE® M 55 Plus Dispersion".

So, it appears DuPont actually still makes the grease ELAC specified! :)

This is the stuff that is apparently supposed to be mixed with the Milcott 50 or 40 for the platter bearings.

m55plus.jpg

Here's the data sheet: http://www.dupont.com/content/dam/D...iterature/Downloaded-TDS/0901b803809b788c.pdf

"Add to lubricating and gear oils in amounts of 5% by volume; 10% for particularly heavy stress. Not to be added to aqueous metalworking emulsions. Can be used in all lubrication systems, such as drip oilers, central lubricating systems, etc. Use undiluted to improve the operation of hot-boxes."

Black dispersion of solid lubricants in mineral oil.

FEATURES


    • Increases load carrying capacity
    • Reduces friction and wear
    • Reduces running noise
    • Improves running-in
    • Emergency running properties
    • Prevents and reduces pitting in gears

      COMPOSITION

      • Mineral oil
      • Molybdenum disulphide
      • Dispersant

      moly55.jpg
 
PLATTER BEARING LUBRICATION PART FIVE -- MODERN EQUIVALENTS IDENTIFIED

To summarize, the two products below appear to be the modern day platter bearing lubrication equivalents that Elac originally specified.

MODERN EQUIVALENTS AVAILABLE TODAY (note that the Molykote is to be added to the Millcot oil)

  • 1. DuPont "MOLYKOTE M55 PLUS" (mix 10% by volume with Millcot)
  • 2. Mobile "Millcot K 68" (mix with Molykote)
Seems like both products are targeted at industrial markets and might be pricey.

But now that we know the specifications, perhaps a cost effective equivalent for each can be identified.

Anyone want to take a stab at finding equivalent products based on the data sheets that are consumer facing and cost effective?

Here are the data sheets:

molykote plus.jpg

millcot.jpg
 
Last edited:
Found some info on how to decipher Elac's "10%" descriptor of the Molykote M55 additive.

https://www.astbearings.com/bearing-lubrication.html

"The amount of grease is typically specified as a percentage, such as 30% fill. The percentage represents the actual grease volume compared to the free internal space within the bearing. In other words, if the internal space in the bearing is completely filled with grease with no voids, it would be 100% full. Manufacturers of bearings have different amounts that they would consider standard. This typically ranges from 20% to 40%. In small or miniature bearings grease fill amounts can be as little as 10%.

Oil is applied by the manufacturer with special equipment as well. The amount is not normally specified. In torque sensitive applications excess oil can be removed via centrifuging. This is more common with miniature or instrument type bearings."


CONCLUSION
  • As Elac specifies only "10%" grease, I'm thinking there should only be a thin, light application of the Molykote M55 Plus (or equivalent) grease on the annular bearing.
  • The currently available Milcott K68 (or equivalent SAE 15 or SAE 20) oil could be used, but no quantity is listed by Elac.
  • ELAC originally specified K50 or K40 Millcot oil. They are no longer available. K40 or K50 probably translates to about SAE 12 - 15.
  • I'm thinking might be better to use a few drops of Zoom Spout turbine oil (SAE 10) -- or at least mix Zoom Spout with a few drops of blue 3 - in 1 SAE 20 to reduce the oil thickness to approximate the SAE 12 - 15 that Elac specified.
 
Last edited:
A CRITICAL ERROR WHEN REPACKING THRUST BEARINGS?

The annular bearing is sandwiched between two washers. I've seen many folks putting grease on both sides of both washers.

I'm thinking this may be a mistake. I'm thinking only the sides of each washer facing the bearing/race should have lubrication.

Can anyone confirm? If the outside (non bearing sides) of the washers have lubrication, would it prevent the ball bearings from properly rolling? And would that result in unwanted playback noise?
 
Found this selection chart for modern day Molykote grease which can be used in a "Rolling Element Bearing" application. The picture suggests this application is for annular bearings like the Elac stackers use.

Molykoterollingelement.jpg
 
Ok. getting my Realistic Elac LAB 60 up & running. It runs a little slow even with pitch control all the way over to +. It has a idler-belt combo. The motor turns the idler wheel which then turns the platter with the belt. I assume the idler height needs adjusting, but not sure where to do it.

I have one of these turntables, I bought new in 1978. I retired it about 5 years ago when I bought a Audio Technica at-120. The reason I retired it was because I couldn't get the speed right. As I get older and my eyesight gets worse, I really have problems with the manual TT. I wanted to get back to a automatic. A few weeks ago, I got the Lab 60 out of storage to dig into it to see if If I could get it working again. Took it apart to look into the speed control mechanism. What I found is the old grease had hardened up and the speed control was not moving its full range. Cleaned it up and applied a little Mystic JT-6 grease where the old Lubriplate was and It works great. One caveat is then when I first start the table it runs a little slow, but if i Let it spin a few minutes before playing, the speed becomes dead on with the speed control in the center. IIRC it has done this ever since it was new, originally I used to adjust speed control every time I started playing, then have to adjust it back later. Now I just leave it be and within a few minutes it is right on. While I was in there I oiled the Motor bearings and replaced any other dried up hardened grease I could get to without major surgery and It works like new now.

My Research tells me that this TT is a ELAC model PC-830, There is also a similar 810 and 820, but I haven't found much on those.

Good luck with your Lab-60, its a really great TT.

Ron
 
ELAC MOTOR MOUNT DIMENSIONS MEASURED SO NEW MOUNTS CAN BE SOURCED

Problem summary

If any of the three rubber motor mounts are out of spec in an Elac turntable equipped with a Papst motor, vibration noise from the motor will be audible during LP playback (especially between songs or quiet passages)

There is ZERO information about the dimensions of the Elac motor mounts in the Elac service manuals or anywhere online, including German turntable forums. There are currently no known replacements.

So, I pulled an Elac motor mount out and measured it!
Hopefully, a suitable replacement for the motor mount can now be found or created using these exact dimensions from the original part.
  • Elac used three rubber motor mounts to support the Papst motor
  • Two mounts are used above the motor to hang it
  • One mount is used below the motor
  • It's possible Elac used this size motor mount found in the 10H for other models with the Papst motor, including the 40H, 50H and 770H etc.
Below: my measurements of the motor mount summarized in an infographic

gummipuffersize.jpg

Below: Location of the three motor mounts per the Elac service manual

gummipuffer sm 1.jpg

Below: Reference to the motor mounts in the Elac service manual (but no dimensions provided). Part number 10-416-121

gummipuffer sm2.jpg


Below: My measurement findings in text form. Note that millimeters ARE THE EXACT SIZE of the original measured part. I also added the closest approximate fraction (NOT EXACT) of an inch for cross-reference.

Bore Diameter (A): 4 mm.
(5/32")
Groove Width (B): 4 mm. (5/32")
Groove Diameter (C): 7 mm. (9/32")
Outside Diameter (D): 10.50 mm. (13/32")
Shoulder Width (E): 4 mm. (5/32")
Shoulder Width (F): 2 mm. (5/64")
Overall Thickness (G): 10 mm. (25/64")
 
Last edited:
LOWER RUBBER MOTOR MOUNT - EXTREMELY CRITICAL FOR QUIET PLAYBACK

I've confirmed that the lower rubber motor mount (beneath the Papst motor as shown in the below photo) is extremely critical for damping motor noise.

Over time, this lower rubber motor mount becomes less pliant, the bore hole widens from vibration and the motor shaft is then free to slightly wobble. This increased motor vibration transfers directly to the metal bracket, then on to the main chassis and is picked up by the stylus during playback.

If you are still chasing a mystery motor noise heard between songs -- even after lubing the main bearings and refreshing the idler wheel--this lower motor mount may be the culprit.

To test the theory, I stuffed some damping material in the bore hole of this motor mount surrounding the metal shaft from the motor. The motor noise heard during playback then declined dramatically.

Now that this significant source of noise has been identified, where can new rubber motor mounts be sourced? See dimensions of rubber mounts in my prior post.

IMG_2265.jpg
 
Last edited:
LOWER RUBBER MOTOR MOUNT - EXTREMELY CRITICAL FOR QUIET PLAYBACK

I've confirmed that the lower rubber motor mount (beneath the Papst motor as shown in the below photo) is extremely critical for damping motor noise.

Over time, this lower rubber motor mount becomes less pliant, the bore hole widens from vibration and the motor shaft is then free to slightly wobble. This increased motor vibration transfers directly to the metal bracket, then on to the main chassis and is picked up by the stylus during playback.

If you are still chasing a mystery motor noise heard between songs -- even after lubing the main bearings and refreshing the idler wheel--this lower motor mount may be the culprit.

To test the theory, I stuffed some damping material in the bore hole of this motor mount surrounding the metal shaft from the motor. The motor noise heard during playback then declined dramatically.

Now that this significant source of noise has been identified, where can new rubber motor mounts be sourced? See dimensions of rubber mounts in my prior post.

View attachment 1454429
Did you leave the material in the borehole or was this just for testing purposes? I have been wanting to mess around with putting some sort of damping material in this area to improve the rumble. If I ever get a day off I will try and experiment with this.
 
Back
Top Bottom