Kenwood L - 1000 Series - strongly overhyped?

[stirliz]

Hi guys,

Few days back I have got a new addition to my humble hi-fi collection., namely the Kenwood L-1000C preamp.

While I have yet to find a separate Power-amp to match it, I have connected it to the Power-amp of my all good old Optonica SM 4646, and I found that in any respect do not sound much (if any) better than the Optonicas own preamp. I have done only few listening rounds so far, but could not hear any groundbreaking differences.

So a very natural question jumps to my mind - Is this series of Kenwood (a long with Kenwood L-1000M, L-1000D and T) just strongly overhyped (sound wise). I know that the engineering as well as the realization are quite superb - but does it count if an integrated Amp that is 10 years older, and now 2x cheaper than the L-1000C only, sound at least comparably good?!

I know that there are some units, that are being priced high on the Ebay, not so much because of their sound qualities, but for the design (like some of the Lux amps). These Kenwoods are definitely not that case, as they look very "technocratic" to say the least. (When I unpacked the preamp, my wife, who have seen quite a few Vintage pieces, looked at it and told me - " Hey, don't get me wrong, but this guy looks terrible" )

In general, my question is - do they really worth paying so much for them? I really doubt now...


P.S. Actually I have found a German Audio magazine, with the review of Kenwood L-1000T Tuner. While mentioning the superb engineering job done by Kenwood, the reviewer has underlined, that Kenwoods own tuners for half a price of L-1000T do sound not worse than it.

 

[theophile]

Personally there would only be two Kenwood preamps I would be interested in,despite owning(now)6 different Kenwood poweramps.

They are the 700C(which I own)and the L-07CII which is reputed to be a fine preamp.I have had the preamp section of the KA-7300 mentioned to me as a decent performer when used a a stand-alone preamp.

This is solely my opinion,other's will see it differently,but I feel that Kenwood's stronger suit was their power amps.That's not a damning assessment within my personal view of things,because I feel that preamps get screwed-up by lots of firms past and present.

 

[stirliz]

Personally there would only be two Kenwood preamps I would be interested in,despite owning(now)6 different Kenwood poweramps.

They are the 700C(which I own)and the L-07CII which is reputed to be a fine preamp.I have had the preamp section of the KA-7300 mentioned to me as a decent performer when used a a stand-alone preamp.

This is solely my opinion,other's will see it differently,but I feel that Kenwood's stronger suit was their power amps.That's not a damning assessment within my personal view of things,because I feel that preamps get screwed-up by lots of firms past and present.

Hi Theophile - I have read you insights on Kenwood, as well as the story of buyng two power-amps from Europe lately :thmbsp:. I know you like them a lot, and they, I am sure, do sound very well! But lately I have started to realize, having owned lot's of different vintage equipment, that many different amps, pre-amps and to some respect CDs (I have never done an A/B comparison there, so my observation might be not that true here) do sound very alike.


I mean, hey Optonica SM 4646 is a beautifully engineered Amp - and the pre-amp part is all Class-A FET differential circuits etc. - so generally speaking, there is no wonder, that two well built pre-amps sound alike.
However - why are so many people (including me in this case) do overpay for something one can get for much less money. The only "upgrade" that Kenwood brought to me - is the remote control - which is quite handy, if I am watching movies through my Hi-Fi system.

P.S. I do remember reading in a copy of, at that time famous, German "Hi-Fi Stereophonie" magazine a comparison test between Quad *donotknowthenumer*, Kenwood L-08 and Mitsubishi DA-30 combos (pre+power). The Mitsubishi was priced two times cheaper than Kenwood and even more than 2x cheaper than Quad. In the end it came out not only the best bang for the buck, but a much better combo than Quad, and equally good to Kenwoods L series, suppressing it in some of the Lab measurements.

 

[bjarnetv]

let me just start by saying that i have never heard an l-1000c, but before you discard it based on this one experience, you should probably ask yourself where the bottleneck lies in your system.

does the output impedance of the preamp match the input impedance of the optonica?
is your power amp, source and speakers good enough to reveal any differences between two preamps?

have you heard i wide range of components before, and do you trust your own ears to hear the difference between them?

you should also remember that a good preamp is not there to color the sound. (unless it was designed to do so)
the only thing a good preamp should do (except volume control) is let the signal pass through without degrading it, and provide an impedance match between your source and power amp.

 

[ManyMoonsAudio]

let me just start by saying that i have never heard an l-1000c, but before you discard it based on this one experience, you should probably ask yourself where the bottleneck lies in your system.

does the output impedance of the preamp match the input impedance of the optonica?
is your power amp, source and speakers good enough to reveal any differences between two preamps?

have you heard i wide range of components before, and do you trust your own ears to hear the difference between them?

you should also remember that a good preamp is not there to color the sound. (unless it was designed to do so)
the only thing a good preamp should do (except volume control) is let the signal pass through without degrading it, and provide an impedance match between your source and power amp.

Well put:thmbsp:

 

[stirliz]

let me just start by saying that i have never heard an l-1000c, but before you discard it based on this one experience, you should probably ask yourself where the bottleneck lies in your system.

does the output impedance of the preamp match the input impedance of the optonica?

Good point, but is that so critical when we are speaking of a good componnents... I doubt.

Plus - if there would have been any critical mismatch - I would have definitely heard the difference between two!

is your power amp, source and speakers good enough to reveal any differences between two preamps?

As I have mentioned - my power amp is Optonica SM4646 which is dual Mono construction with separate PS for each channel, and not the worst design by any means. It is more than adequate, to say the least.

I have 3 Main speaker pairs which are Boston Acoustics VR40 *TOTL* in mid 90s, Fisher STE-1100, also part of the TOTL series by end of 70s, and Klipsch Tangent 500s, which are not all that beloved, but were Top of their line and are very nice sounding speakers IMO. I guess my "hardware" base is good enough to revile any noticeable difference.

have you heard i wide range of components before, and do you trust your own ears to hear the difference between them?

I have heard more than enough gear, and the biggest audible difference is in speakers - even two speakers that sound very alike, can be distinguished by nuances. Not so in amps. Though, I do hear a clear difference between Optonica and Mitsubishi DA combo.

you should also remember that a good preamp is not there to color the sound. (unless it was designed to do so)
the only thing a good preamp should do (except volume control) is let the signal pass through without degrading it, and provide an impedance match between your source and power amp.

Thats exactly what I am talking about - if there are 2 equally good pre-amps (or Amps, or CD-Players) - and one costs 2x more than the other (ignoring the fact that Optonica is actually a beautiful Integrated - so you get better value in any case) - Why should one pay more... and many people do actually overpay!

 

[theophile]

I respect your assessment as you find it with regard to use within your system.

In your system the L-1000C doesn't shine. :scratch2:

Sell it and use the money some other way. :thmbsp:

 

[stirliz]

I respect your assessment as you find it with regard to use within your system.

In your system the L-1000C doesn't shine. :scratch2:

Sell it and use the money some other way. :thmbsp:

I will do that as soon as I get a matching amp to test them as combo. And as said above, the remote control is such a nice thing to have

It's pitty I have sold my Hitachi HCA 8300 peamp - would have been a very nice reference.

P.S. I suspect I heard some sarcasm in regard to my system, but while not being a fantastic one it can hood it's own against many top components.

 

[theophile]

I will do that as soon as I get a matching amp to test them as combo. And as said above, the remote control is such a nice thing to have

It's pitty I have sold my Hitachi HCA 8300 peamp - would have been a very nice reference.

P.S. I suspect I heard some sarcasm in regard to my system, but while not being a fantastic one it can hood it's own against many top components.

No sarcasm with regard to your components.

If you do a search and look at my assessments of components,I always add the proviso that what I am saying applies to within my own system or some such indication that I don't wish the findings to be considered universally applicable.

 

[redcoates7]

Unfortunately I'd agree with striliz with his observations about the L-1000C preamp. It's good, but not great. My 700C (EW modded) simply blows it away, as does my stock Adcom GFP-750.

I find that the sound is a bit better when used through the balanced outputs, but still not what I expected from Kenwood's last flagship stereo preamp.

That said the L-1000T tuner is WONDERFUL and I would highly recommend it to anyone looking for a modern high-qualty tuner.

 

[stirliz]

Unfortunately I'd agree with striliz with his observations about the L-1000C preamp. It's good, but not great. My 700C (EW modded) simply blows it away, as does my stock Adcom GFP-750.

I find that the sound is a bit better when used through the balanced outputs, but still not what I expected from Kenwood's last flagship stereo preamp.

That said the L-1000T tuner is WONDERFUL and I would highly recommend it to anyone looking for a modern high-quality tuner.

I thinks it's not just the case of L-1000C, not only this series, but many renowned units are over-hyped and overpriced.
For many people it is difficult to admit that they have paid 2x or 3x $ to get the same value - plus the crowd hyping factor...and to, funnily enough The Vintage Knob factor. If the unit is from known series and is shown in purple light on TVK - the prices do jump, and let the hype begin.

Again, the point is not that L-1000c is a bad preamp, or L-1000M is bad amp, it's just the question, are they so good to pay the megabuck for them?!

 

[theophile]

I thinks it's not just the case of L-1000C, not only this series, but many renowned units are over-hyped and overpriced.
For many people it is difficult to admit that they have paid 2x or 3x $ to get the same value - plus the crowd hyping factor...and to, funnily enough The Vintage Knob factor. If the unit is from known series and is shown in purple light on TVK - the prices do jump, and let the hype begin.

Again, the point is not that L-1000c is a bad preamp, or L-1000M is bad amp, it's just the question, are they so good to pay the megabuck for them?!

So have you heard the L-1000M,and where on the internet are the 'hyped' comments about the L-1000C?Links please. :yes:

 

[redcoates7]

Oh, I still paid the money for an L-1000C and M, but their value to me is independent of their performance. I'm a collector, so their rarity is almost as important as their performance.

That said, they are beautifully constructed and a real pleasure to use and look at.

As with all other things in this world, there's always a more utilitarian way to get there, but its more fun to get there in style...

 

[stirliz]

So have you heard the L-1000M,and where on the internet are the 'hyped' comments about the L-1000C?Links please. :yes:

I knew you would kick me for referencing the L-1000M.

I heard it once, and it was a good as far as I can say, but I cannot do any estimates without listening to it in my own system for sure :nono:

Oh, I still paid the money for an L-1000C and M, but their value to me is independent of their performance. I'm a collector, so their rarity is almost as important as their performance.

That said, they are beautifully constructed and a real pleasure to use and look at.

Exactly, we do overpay just to have that unit, as it is believed to be rare/top performer/design icon (this one is a personal preference matter) etc. That's what I am talking about

Btw, the L-1000 series is not that rare, at least in Germany. I would say that a Mitsu DA-A10/15 amps are much more rare here, than this Kenwoods.

As with all other things in this world, there's always a more utilitarian way to get there, but its more fun to get there in style...

+1!

 

[theophile]

I knew you would kick me for referencing the L-1000M.

No disputing your 1000C comments.That is your experience.Leave the 1000M aside for now.

 

[stirliz]

No disputing your 1000C comments.That is your experience.Leave the 1000M aside for now.

Agreed!

L-1000C - another bad surprise for today.

It just happened that today I got my Victor FX-500 wooden cone headphones and tried to listen them through the Headphone amp of L-1000 - it's a joke. Very noisy.
I crosschecked with Optonica - and in comparison it's dead silent. Not completely, but the difference is huge.

And to my surprise - the volume control does make some silent, but audible scratchy noise (the potentiometer has oxidized) when turning up and down manually. I never heard it with speakers (probably as I have always used remote) - but on the headphones it was clearly audible. :thumbsdn:

Another point to consider.

Regarding were is the L-1000C hyped - look here:

http://www.thevintageknob.org/KENWOOD/L1000C/L1000C.html

Even weight is overstated - it's 9kg and not 12

As well as here on audiokarma - I have read few more than very positive reviews.

 

[redcoates7]

Well, there's something wrong with your L-1000C then.

Mine is properly functioning and sounds wonderful driving both Grado SR-60s and AT ATH-D700 headphones.

Maybe not the last word in detail or resolution compared to a more modern preamplifier, or a completely rebuild TOTL classic but very good.

As for TVK, the L-1000C is on there because it's a flagship unit, and Kenwood's last best attempt at a high end stereo preamp. Strictly a factual post, no buzz there

As for their rarity, Kenwood Germany is one of the only markets that fully embraced the L-1000 series so they are fairly common. VERY difficult to come by in the US. Maybe 1 or two pieces of L-1000 series gear available in the US per year....and i watch for it!

 

[theophile]

Agreed!

L-1000C - another bad surprise for today.

It just happened that today I got my Victor FX-500 wooden cone headphones and tried to listen them through the Headphone amp of L-1000 - it's a joke. Very noisy.
I crosschecked with Optonica - and in comparison it's dead silent. Not completely, but the difference is huge.

And to my surprise - the volume control does make some silent, but audible scratchy noise (the potentiometer has oxidized) when turning up and down manually. I never heard it with speakers (probably as I have always used remote) - but on the headphones it was clearly audible. :thumbsdn:

Another point to consider.

Regarding were is the L-1000C hyped - look here:

http://www.thevintageknob.org/KENWOOD/L1000C/L1000C.html

Even weight is overstated - it's 9kg and not 12

As well as here on audiokarma - I have read few more than very positive reviews.

There is reasonable concern that you have a faulty unit.Some of the things you describe make it a not unreasonable conclusion.

stir,I'm perfectly happy to accept that what you are recounting here is the factual evidence of your ears(no I'm not picking on your ears).What I find ironic,is that you would like us to accept your evaluation of the preamp,however you seem quick to dismiss others' opinions of the unit('Hype').It would be more in the interest of sharing opinions if there was an attitude of 'agree to disagree',agree to accept divergent viewpoint even if one personally doesn't accord with it.If that is what one wants from others,one should be prepared to adopt the same stance.

We are by now well aware that the L-1000C is not one your list of acceptable preamps.That's fine.Let's respect others and not call their opinions into question.Preamps generally stink soundwise.My experience suggests that it is much more likely for one to buy a decent sounding poweramp than a competent preamp.Many will disagree with that but that is the overriding impression I get with each subsequent component I buy.

Which preamps other than the Optonica have you long term experience of?

 

[stirliz]

Well, there's something wrong with your L-1000C then.

Mine is properly functioning and sounds wonderful driving both Grado SR-60s and AT ATH-D700 headphones.

Maybe not the last word in detail or resolution compared to a more modern preamplifier, or a completely rebuild TOTL classic but very good.

I did not say, that it sounded bad, but it lacked a bit mid-low end, and was much noisier than the Optonica. I was really surprised that it is so noisy.

I do not think that my unit is broken, it was in a very good condition. It's just it was not what I really expected from a "discrete high-end" unit produced
by Accuphase (or with cooperation). The oxidized potentiometer is nothing new, the Optonica had that issue as well when I got it first, but I thought that state of art 6 gang control in the kenwood is completely noise free...
I checked it on Speakers - it is so, I can hear nothing, but on phones - its audible....strange. Might be 2 gangs of that 6 gang potentiometer are discrete for Phone amps and only those got oxidized... must get the service manual to find if it's true.

As for TVK, the L-1000C is on there because it's a flagship unit, and Kenwood's last best attempt at a high end stereo preamp. Strictly a factual post, no buzz there

Well, yes and no - I love TVK, and Axel has done a great job there...but I still find some of the descriptions being a bit on the "hype" side. L-1000c is IMO that case. There is nothing overwhelming, but you can read it between the lines.

As for their rarity, Kenwood Germany is one of the only markets that fully embraced the L-1000 series so they are fairly common. VERY difficult to come by in the US. Maybe 1 or two pieces of L-1000 series gear available in the US per year....and i watch for it!

Yeah that's probably true. Though here I saw at least 4 complete sets in last half of the year, and more separate units.
I have the feeling (by reading this forum) that the Hi-Fi mass market has completely died out in US by the beginning of 90s, and Japanese had no interest of promoting their stuff on big scale anymore. I guess because US is the cheapest market of all other big consumer markets, and without the massive sale, you cannot keep the prices low. All jumped into multichannel by then.

 

[stirliz]

There is reasonable concern that you have a faulty unit.Some of the things you describe make it a not unreasonable conclusion.

While I do not think it is (there is nothing that does not work, it just does not sound as good as I have expected) - I will probably still check that out by comparing to another such unit in future.

stir,I'm perfectly happy to accept that what you are recounting here is the factual evidence of your ears(no I'm not picking on your ears).What I find ironic,is that you would like us to accept your evaluation of the preamp,however you seem quick to dismiss others' opinions of the unit('Hype').It would be more in the interest of sharing opinions if there was an attitude of 'agree to disagree',agree to accept divergent viewpoint even if one personally doesn't accord with it.If that is what one wants from others,one should be prepared to adopt the same stance. We are by now well aware that the L-1000C is not one your list of acceptable preamps.That's fine.Let's respect others and not call their opinions into question.

Oh, I think I was too enthusiastic in describing me being upset with the preamp. I, for sure, do respect all opinions in this thread. Otherwise, I wouldn't start the thread - it would be just trolling and waste of time. I just wanted to share my thoughts on the issue of "Hi-Fi Hype" with the particular case being fresh in mind.

Preamps generally stink soundwise.My experience suggests that it is much more likely for one to buy a decent sounding poweramp than a competent preamp.Many will disagree with that but that is the overriding impression I get with each subsequent component I buy.

Hm, interesting point of view indeed. And might be very true for most of the time. I would rephrase - it is in 90% of the cases it's much more likely to get a *better* value *both sound and money wise* when buying a decent poweramp. Especially the late 70s TOTL Models. Many units were still made to be a DECENT Pre and Power-amp in one unit, some having a separate PS for all stages. The Optonica has 3! transformers to feed both channels and the pre separately. (and yes I do really like that unit )

Which preamps other than the Optonica have you long term experience of?

I had 2 discrete preamps;

Hitachi HCA-8300 (which I like a lot - it's wonderful pre, and I regret selling it lately. I sold it to finance (partly) the Kenwood.

And I have used the Mitsubishi DA-P20 for quite some time (well actually it was DA-C20, which is DA-P20 with Tuner). This one is also a very well constructed unit, but sounds a bit harsher.

I never referenced in this discussion a comparison of Kenwood to those two, as I find it is just wrong to compare by memory. Not for audio, at least at this level, when none of the units are complete outsiders.