1961 Fisher President VI Restoration

Discussion in 'Fisher' started by zarek, Apr 14, 2017.

  1. zarek

    zarek Active Member

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    I’m far from a Fisher expert, but this version is in the 1961 catalog.
     
  2. Dswankey

    Dswankey Super Member

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  3. larryderouin

    larryderouin You can be sure if it's Westinghouse??????? Subscriber

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    Stereophonic script was used on various models up until the 1962 500B/800B receivers, and the various Tuners that had built in Multiplexers.
     
  4. beatcomber

    beatcomber AK Member

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    Good knowledge, thanks.
     
  5. moondogtn

    moondogtn AK Subscriber Subscriber

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    Wow...very, very nice!

    Bill
     
  6. dcgillespie

    dcgillespie Fisher SA-100 Clone Subscriber

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    Zarek -- If I may, could you answer some specific questions regarding the 400CX preamp in your President please? That specific model preamp is quite rare, being a transitional piece to get from the long running 400C before it, to the long running 400CX-2 after it. There is no known service manual that has ever surfaced that covers your specific preamp unit. It is often just thought of as a early 400CX-2, but there are significant differences between the 400CX, and a 400CX-2, starting with the tubes used (yours uses 12AT7s while a 400CX-2 uses 7247 tubes), as well as other features, and so the questions:

    1. Was your console lucky enough to come with a Service Manual? If so, I'd love to get a copy of it either directly, or by getting it uploaded to the AK Database.

    2. On your Stereo Dimension Control -- does it merely blend the stereo signal into a mono signal, or does it have the ability to actually expand the stereo beyond the recorded sound stage like the CX-2 version does?

    3. Also on your Stereo Dimension Control -- does it have a switch on it that controls the center red jewel?

    4. And finally, does the red jewel go dark when its feature is not activated? Or does it go dim to act as a power indicator when its feature is not activated?

    I have a unit here that is identical to yours (I believe anyway -- the answers to the questions will determine if so absolutely), and have found that there is one specific part in these units whose value is radically off from what would be considered good design practice. Oh, the part installed allows the unit to work OK -- but only because the circuit is acting to compensate for such a large departure from the norm for this one component. The circuit it is in (the tone control stage) is used in a great number of other Fisher products as well, where the value of the component in question is quite as would be expected in all of the other units -- but not in these units. In looking at the underside view of your unit, yours also appears to have the same radical part value installed as the one here does. So the question is, was that intentional? Except that there is no known Service Manual for these units to know for sure....... Or, did somebody just load up the parts feeder on the assembly line with the wrong value resistor........ The value installed is literally ten times the expected value that would be used, so I suppose that somebody could have been slightly color blind, too. A typical part would carry the color bands brown-gray-red, yet what is installed is brown-gray-orange, which could be easily confused. Anyway, just trying to give you an understanding of why finding a Service Manual for this specific model is so necessary. All other schematics out there -- even those being offered as for a 400CX -- are actually for a CX-2. I have drawn out a rough schematic of the one I have here, but just trying to gather all the info I can when these units pop up, which as I say, is quite rare. Therefore, any help would be appreciated.

    You have a beautiful console! Thanks in advance for any info you can provide.

    Dave
     
    zarek and lithography like this.
  7. walyfd

    walyfd Well-Known Member

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    One thing I just noticed is "President" isn't on the amp faceplate. Generally the console name rather than the amp number was on the console series.

    In any event, that console is a real prize.
     
    zarek likes this.
  8. Sam Cogley

    Sam Cogley Last of the Time Lords Subscriber

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    Holy Toledo.
     
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  9. zarek

    zarek Active Member

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    Location:
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    1. I do not have the service manual, but I do have the Operating Manual for this specific preamp. I’ve never seen one other than mine anywhere. It answers your questions.

    2. The Stereo Dimension Control combines/blends the signals from both channels to any desired degree. Complete separation when off (full stereo), both channels fully combined all the way on.

    3. When the Stereo Dimension Control is used the “C” indicator light goes on (I’m not sure of the activation switch method. Mine likes to stay on most of the time, it may need cleaning or adjustment).

    4. The manual states the center jewel is only lit when the Stereo Dimension Control is used. It has no other use or dimming feature.

    I will scan this manual and create a pdf I can share.

    Also, be aware that the original service manual does exist. A gentlemen on eBay has it as part of an overhaul kit. He has six versions of the manual for this amp. In his auction photos you can clearly see the front cover of the correct manual for this early version preamp. It will cost you about $140 for the privilege.
    Pat
     
  10. dcgillespie

    dcgillespie Fisher SA-100 Clone Subscriber

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    Pat -- Thank-you so much for your response! There is so much ambiguity surrounding the available information on this unit:

    1. Jon from the Fisher Console site sent me a copy of the Fisher's Owner's Manual for the "400 CX" as clearly stated on the front of the booket -- except that everything in it is for the CX-2; chassis layout, tubes used, later version Stereo Dimension Control, etc.etc....... It would be wonderful if you could provide an Owner's manual for your unit, since it is apparently actually for these early units! That would be great! Does it too say it's for the 400 CX as well?

    2. Interesting that there are possibly six versions of this unit -- it doesn't surprise me. I do know for a fact that the face plate alone will not adequately identify these models. I've seen what by all appearances was the early 400 CX (brown oval push-button knobs, plated brass face plate, etc) yet the chassis was stamped 400CX-2, used the later tube lineup, and it included the later style Stereo Dimension control as well.

    You've given me one more lead to follow which I appreciate.

    Thank-you!

    Dave
     
  11. larryderouin

    larryderouin You can be sure if it's Westinghouse??????? Subscriber

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    That's probably FISHERDOC with the kit. Hell if there's 6 versions, FISHER had to denote some way of keeping them straight. (Serial #'s maybe?).

    You ain't part Coon Dog are ya, Dave?????
     
  12. zarek

    zarek Active Member

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    105
    Location:
    Kenosha, Wisconsin
    Guys, when I said there are six versions (approximately) I was speaking of the 400-CX and 400-CX2's. The different versions all seem to be in groups beginning with 10,000. For instance my amplifier falls between serial # 10,000 and 19,999. 20,000 starts the next variant, 30,000, etc.. Look at the pic of just two of the versions this gentlemen has. I can clearly identify the manual on the right as the correct one for my amp.
    Pat

    . 400-CXkit4.jpg
     
  13. dcgillespie

    dcgillespie Fisher SA-100 Clone Subscriber

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    Production runs of 10,000 was quite typical of Fisher, but the document inconsistencies with this preamp series between version runs are significant -- both with the Service Manual, and the Owner's Manual. The unit on the left in the previous pic says it is for a model 400CX, but clearly shows a picture of a CX-2, and covers a serial number range that could only be for the CX-2, so the shoes and shoe laces don't match, which has always been the problem with information on these preamps. There also was definitely a version that looks like a true CX (the one on the right), but has CX-2 circuitry installed, and CX-2 stamped on the chassis. Maybe it was covered in the Service Manual for the serial range that's in between the serial range shown for the two manuals shown in the pic (i.e.: 20001 to 29999).

    Such problems were hardly uncommon with Fisher, with numerous other models having Service Manual examples where the pic of the unit on the manual cover does not match the serial number range of the unit actually covered in the manual. With this line of preamps, it seems that the primary issue Fisher was having is that it couldn't quite keep the model number straight between the versions when it flipped from the model CX, to the model CX-2, with there being both Service Manuals and Owner's Manuals having text or data pertaining to one model, yet indicating by model number that they covered the other model. With Service Manuals, the serial number range is really the most dependable indicator of the information provided within a given manual, while model numbers and pics may or may not always match up appropriately.

    Dave
     
  14. Sam Cogley

    Sam Cogley Last of the Time Lords Subscriber

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    If memory serves, weren't the 400-CX2 units with the updated faceplate still marked 400-CX on the front? I think the 400-CX-2 markings were only on the chassis.
     
  15. zarek

    zarek Active Member

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    Location:
    Kenosha, Wisconsin
    Here is the correct manual for the early 400-CX.
    Pat
     

    Attached Files:

  16. zarek

    zarek Active Member

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    Location:
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    The rest of it. The pdf in printable resolution is available free on my website www.vintagehifi.net.
    Pat
     

    Attached Files:

  17. vendo81

    vendo81 AK Subscriber Subscriber

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    That's exactly how my 400-CX2 is marked as well as one I swapped with a good friend.
     
  18. dcgillespie

    dcgillespie Fisher SA-100 Clone Subscriber

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    Now that is interesting, and explains a lot. In other words, the model number never did change?? Except, what constitutes a "model number"? -- The model number clearly stamped on the chassis? Or that marked on the front plate? Fisher could have done us all a favor and kept their shoes and shoe laces straight on this one!

    Dave
     
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2017
  19. larryderouin

    larryderouin You can be sure if it's Westinghouse??????? Subscriber

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    The problem is that everyone was wearing penny loafers then. :rflmao::naughty::naughty::music::music:
     
  20. vendo81

    vendo81 AK Subscriber Subscriber

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    Very interesting. I had forgotten that I have the original envelope, with manual and all paperwork that came with my 400CX-2. Looks like the front of the manual is similar to the early CX manual front. Inside they still call it the 400CX along with the description of the front panel. Also included in the manual is the "tube layout chart of the 400CX" and uses the 7247 tube, not the 12AT7.

    400cx.jpg 400cx 2.jpg 400cx 3.jpg
     

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