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24/96 vs 24/192

Discussion in 'Digital Sources' started by moejr, Nov 30, 2016.

  1. RhythmGJ

    RhythmGJ Super Member

    Messages:
    1,023
    Location:
    Buffalo, NY
    In my little corner of pro audio, "golden ears" is not a pejorative (at least, it never used to be). But it has to do with critical listening skills that can be developed (hearing compression, applied EQ, delays and reverbs, etc.) given time, practice, and a decent but normal range of hearing. It's not about hearing above 20khz or below 20hz or the perception thereof. In music, "golden ears" can be used interchangeably with "big ears," as in "That cat has big ears," meaning an ability to hear and follow chord changes, a highly developed sense of relative pitch, and maybe even perfect pitch. Being called "golden ears" in either of those contexts would not bother me at all, if I felt deserving of the moniker.

    When I spoke to (microphone manufacturer) Michael Joly, he did tell me that all of the old major studios were wired with Belden cable, and that a lot of bigger studios that want "that sound" will make sure they are wired with Belden through and through. I believe with something like cable, as with any other component in the audio chain, there will be a certain amount of diminishing returns (i.e., I'm not really a believer in "magic" cable), but it's interesting that a significant number of people in the industry apparently are/do.

    >>>>Schiit<<<<

    Please tell me how to pronounce that? (not being facetious)

    GJ
     
    E-Stat likes this.
  2. Alobar

    Alobar Pulling out of the Last Chance Texaco.. Subscriber

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    That seems sensible , especially if you don't have any higher rez files.

    Just like what the bear does in the woods only perhaps pronounced with a German accent!
     
  3. Lioh

    Lioh AK Subscriber Subscriber

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    No, the iMac's internal DAC is not being used because I've selected the McIntosh D100:

    [​IMG]

    I have "hi rez" music on my drive, and there's no audible difference between the three sample rates.

    44.1kHz sample rate can reproduce frequencies up to 22.05kHz. In fact, most human children can only hear from about 20Hz up to about 20kHz. A lot of folks can't even hear up to 20kHz. Hearing the difference between those sample rates is completely, absolutely and totally impossible to hear. Phase errors and ringing are at such a small level, that humans cannot tell the difference.

    I've hosted many blind fold tests with friends in my local city, and we cannot discern the difference between 16bit/44.1kHz, 24bit/96kHz, and 24bit/192kHz. We can all hear up to 20 Hz - 20kHz.

    As I've said before: It seems that many audiophiles invest WAAY too much money, time and effort into believing that they hear EVERYTHING, without taking into account how inferior their ears really are.
     
    Last edited: Jun 8, 2017
  4. E-Stat

    E-Stat Super Member

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    3,384
    Last edited: Dec 13, 2016
  5. E-Stat

    E-Stat Super Member

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    3,384
    Would you care to share which recordings you have in three different resolutions? Unfortunately, it is true that not all recordings were mastered at high rez.
     
  6. Lioh

    Lioh AK Subscriber Subscriber

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    Given that the upper limit of human hearing is in the low 20 kHz range, why would it matter?
     
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  7. E-Stat

    E-Stat Super Member

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    3,384
    That's a canard that misses the point why engineers choose to record at higher resolutions. So, which recordings do you have and from where did you download them?

    If they are poor recordings, it would be helpful for others to know.
     
  8. Alobar

    Alobar Pulling out of the Last Chance Texaco.. Subscriber

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    Yes, you can go your way and I will go mine. Try not to lose sleep over the money I have wasted, okay?
     
  9. Lioh

    Lioh AK Subscriber Subscriber

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    Why would I lose any sleep, and why should I care about the money you've wasted?

    Because they can! It's always been like that. Engineers use the best possible medium in the studios no matter if you can hear it or not. Engineers are crazy about technical parameters. They are extreme purists. ABX tests proved that you cannot hear difference between properly encoded mp3 320Kbps and lossless source. AUDIBLE difference is an AUDIBLE difference. You don't need eyes to hear it.

    As for hearing the difference between sample rates:

    If an engineer demonstrates that there's no measurable difference between two speaker cables, the "audiophile" could easily state that "perception is not something that can really be quantified scientifically", which avoids dealing with the fact that there is absolutely no difference. There are hundreds if not thousands of things that can happen in a day that might affect the way you "perceive" sound, but facts are facts. Ever wash your car and wonder why it drives nicer? It's called the Placebo Effect.

    Frequency response, dynamic range, various harmonic distortions, linear distortions, ringing, phase errors, TIM distortions, background noise, wow and flutter and many others. I cannot hear a single difference, and neither can my friends who participate in the test. Why? Because the difference is 100000x smaller than our ears can catch. It's completely marginable, from a listeners point of view (FAAAAR from being audible).
     
    Last edited: Jun 8, 2017
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  10. E-Stat

    E-Stat Super Member

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    3,384
    I get it now. You don't have any hi rez downloads. :)

    While other tests (I've linked to in this thread) demonstrate the ability for some to consistently differentiate between 24/88 and 24/44.1. Did you ever figure out how to click my hyperlink? Return to post #63 and click the text in blue.

    I'm constantly amazed at the energy and fervor some exert to inform others of what they themselves cannot do.
     
    Last edited: Dec 13, 2016
  11. Alobar

    Alobar Pulling out of the Last Chance Texaco.. Subscriber

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    Good question!! There seems to be some who are quite upset about it tho. Glad to see you are not one of these..
     
  12. moejr

    moejr Super Member

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    Location:
    Londonderry NH
    I read that link. Very interesting and a good read
     
  13. SoNic67

    SoNic67 Well-Known Member

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    920
    "Cables" are just red herrings thrown in by trolls.
     
    Bill Ferris and Alobar like this.
  14. sqlsavior

    sqlsavior AK Subscriber Subscriber

    Messages:
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    Location:
    Espanola NM
    Nothing short of magical or omniscient interpolation will give you anything but a sawtooth waveform at 1/2 the Nyquist frequency.

    ABX is to proof as shit is to Shinola.

    Have a nice day! :)
     
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  15. chicks

    chicks Lunatic Member

    Messages:
    16,845
    Location:
    The Big Valley, CA
    You're welcome. This thread has gone the usual way of these things, with the willfully ignorant trying their best to spread doubt. I'm not sure of their motives, but it's best to ignore them, as they are quite harmless, really, just misguided. Any rational observer will see their arguments for what they are. I'm outta here.
     
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  16. E-Stat

    E-Stat Super Member

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    3,384
    Indeed. I have to smile whenever Chicks or Lioh continue to misinform others that such studies don't exist. Especially the non-referenced assertion that no one can tell differences between lossy MP3 and even Redbook! Which by association means that lossy MP3 is as good as it gets. What a sad notion if such were true!

    Understand that the question is not whether everyone can hear differences on all systems using all content. It is remarkably easy to find any number of folks who lack the ability to discern differences.

    It is that some practiced listeners can consistently tell the difference between Redbook and higher resolutions (perhaps not between 96 and 192 or DXD) using complex content. Led Zeppelin or the forty-sixth remaster of DSOTM don't qualify. :)
     
    Last edited: Dec 14, 2016
  17. Lioh

    Lioh AK Subscriber Subscriber

    Messages:
    142
    Practiced listeners, golden ear musicians, special hearing genes, products you buy that make people hear better than what their ears are even capable of hearing, etc. Did I miss anything?

    I don't believe for a single second that people can hear the difference between 16bit/44.1kHz and 24bit/96kHz. Bottom line: I cannot discern any changes in the sound, and neither can the people who participate in my blindfold tests. Why? Because the difference is 100000x smaller than our ears can catch. It's completely marginal, from a listeners point of view (FAAAAR from being audible). Audiophiles in this business have the tendency to hear "imaginary" sounds made by their brain without taking into account how inferior their ears really are.

    There aren't any cables, magic rocks, magic wands, or anything else that will make me hear the difference because it's IMPOSSIBLE.

    It doesn't take a genius to hear the separation of instruments, does it? If you have to focus that hard for that long to hear a difference (which I don't believe is there), then you've totally forgotten how to enjoy music. It's apparent to me that some people will spend their entire life chasing something that isn't there.
     
    Last edited: Jun 8, 2017
  18. +48V

    +48V hi-fi or die

    Messages:
    2,295
    Location:
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    Since this is the sole focus and subject of the op a.k.a. post #1…is it too much to ask that you & et alia elaborate on this specific point henceforth instead of relentlessly contributing further to the exorbitant amount of thread drift? Perhaps indeed....
     
  19. E-Stat

    E-Stat Super Member

    Messages:
    3,384
    Why didn't you make that observation from the very first response, i.e. post #2 which compared Redbook to 24/192?
     
    Last edited: Dec 14, 2016
  20. analoge4ever

    analoge4ever Active Member

    Messages:
    176
    Location:
    Allentown, PA
    When I record a live event @ 24 bit 96Khz PCMI, afterwards I can and do play the recording through my system. Now I'm still discovering things when I mix, but almost everything, even the order in which I do things, does make a difference. So if I get everything right my Redbook CDs are almost indistinguishable from the original PCMI recording, but it is really pretty difficult to avoid changing the sound.

    My point is that the same song at different resolutions probably will sound different, but not necessarily because of the resolution alone.
     
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