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24/96 vs 24/192

Discussion in 'Digital Sources' started by moejr, Nov 30, 2016.

  1. E-Stat

    E-Stat Super Member

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    Reading the results of the AES study to which I linked and brought to your attention multiple times.

    This study aims at investigating whether listeners can perceive differences between musical files recorded at 44.1kHz and 88.2kHz with the same analog chain and type of AD-converter. Sixteen expert listeners were asked to compare 3 versions (44.1kHz, 88.2kHz and the 88.2kHz version down-sampled to 44.1kHz) of 5 musical excerpts in a blind ABX task. Overall, participants were able to discriminate between files recorded at 88.2kHz and their 44.1kHz down-sampled version. Furthermore, for the orchestral excerpt, they were able to discriminate between files recorded at 88.2kHz and files recorded at 44.1kHz.

    And yet, thirteen of the sixteen participants have performed The Impossible". :)

    I didn't really believe you had an honest interest in actually learning anything - just droning on about your preconceptions and clicking the bold button.
     
    Last edited: Dec 14, 2016
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  2. +48V

    +48V hi-fi or die

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    Ah…the notorious “answer a question with a question” dodge. Sorry, but I do not share your interest in further cluttering this thread with unproductive and frivolous debate tactics.

    [sigh] At least we now know that it was indeed asking too much from you to keep your focus on topic.
     
  3. +48V

    +48V hi-fi or die

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    Maybe a larger font will help re-center things back on topic......
    :rolleyes:
     
  4. E-Stat

    E-Stat Super Member

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    3,363
    You're 142 posts late.
     
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  5. Alobar

    Alobar Pulling out of the Last Chance Texaco.. Subscriber

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    Now you have broached another subject entirely. Stating that chasing after the best quality means that one doesn't enjoy music is where many will justify less SQ. It may or may not be so but it is not the subject of this thread. BTW, I suspect it isn't so much about perfect hearing, but better listening ability. If someone is texting on the phone, typing on a forum, getting bitched at by a wife (or husband) or any other of the multitude of distractions, then you are nowhere near critically "hearing" the music, even with perfect hearing!
     
  6. lini

    lini just me...

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    Yup, you probably should have - but to be honest, I might have forgotten to just as well...

    On that topic, what often appears pretty ironic to me is that many, if not most of the earlier CD players from the times, before CD burners became common or even before CD-Rs existed, have absolutely no problem to play these - and then the drives suddenly became more picky. Just contrary to what one would usually expect...

    Greetings from Munich!

    Manfred / lini
     
  7. RhythmGJ

    RhythmGJ Super Member

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    >>>>On that topic, what often appears pretty ironic to me is that many, if not most of the earlier CD players from the times, before CD burners became common or even before CD-Rs existed, have absolutely no problem to play these - and then the drives suddenly became more picky. Just contrary to what one would usually expect...<<<<

    Absolutely true! The best player I had (as far as accepting anything) was an original 1980s Sony Discman with am/fm/tv radio from Japan. Gave up the ghost a few years ago, but basically would play anything. Next would be a cheap $20 portable. Those were both before my current Numarks, which also play just about anything. But a fairly expensive Marantz I had (6-disc), a 100 disc player (forget the brand), and several computer drives were very, very finicky. It seems late 90's through mid-2000s were when the machines became "too smart for their own good."

    GJ
     
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  8. moejr

    moejr Super Member

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    I just experienced that today. My 1989 Kenwood CD Player will play burned CD not a problem though if more than 12 songs it starts to have problems reading so you just keep the burns 12 songs or less. But as I said previously the 1999 Kenwood DVD/CD player cannot play CDR's. That's just plain messed up.
     
  9. JustinCase

    JustinCase AK Subscriber Subscriber

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    I've read it somewhere on here that the 1st generation Sony Playstation was / is a very dependable player for pretty much anything. Apparently they designed it so that it could read disks that us kids abused and used as frisbees. The Playstation will play just about any cd you throw into it afaik.
     
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  10. SoNic67

    SoNic67 Well-Known Member

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    That's an urban legend. The DAC in that PS1 is a horrendous first generation delta-sigma, quickly replaced by manufacturers because of the issues they discovered.
    The grease on the rails is dry and it cannot go past a certain point (starts from the interior towards out).
     
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  11. moejr

    moejr Super Member

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    I'll
    I'll have to look into that. Thanks for the tip.
     
  12. Tom Bombadil

    Tom Bombadil AK Member Subscriber

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    This is true. I own two of them, picked up for $5 each. They are the least accurate CD players I've ever heard. My standard demo CD cuts sound very different as compared to how they sound on good quality CD players & DACs. That said, I can understand why some people like them. They roll off highs more than any player I've ever heard. And the bass is warmer and less defined. Sounded something like if you had a DSP mode for Way Over The Top Tube sound.
     
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  13. SoNic67

    SoNic67 Well-Known Member

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    ^ That might be true.
     
  14. +48V

    +48V hi-fi or die

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    Bumping the OP in one last chivalrous attempt to poll the AK community in this thread with their own personal experience. It's a simple question.

    Please, no more third party links to opposing he said/she said studies, videos, Redbook straw man derailments, etc. There's plenty of that behind us.

    If you have in fact compared 24/96 tracks to 24/192 tracks, tell us if YOU personally have experienced a difference. Is it possible we can now get some simple answers?

    :)
     
  15. RhythmGJ

    RhythmGJ Super Member

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    No, none. (Difference that is; to these ears)...

    GJ
     
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  16. Andyman

    Andyman Scroungus Stereophilus Subscriber

    Some folks hear a difference, others don't, so only you can determine if it matters to you. I played a few hi-rez tracks in my modest system and certainly don't notice any huge difference, if any at all. But others may.

    That being said, I built my system for my enjoyment, not others. So find your sweet spot and enjoy the hell out of it, others be damned...
     
  17. +48V

    +48V hi-fi or die

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    Oh, I almost forgot. :oops:

    Put a check in the No column for me.
     
  18. SaSi

    SaSi AK Subscriber Subscriber

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    I'll try to comment on the subject, hoping I don't bounce away a lot.
    Before commenting on a player's resolution, I'l comment on the material first. We have so many examples of badly recorded and mastered music that shows absolutely no stereo image and has a very small dynamic range, that sampling frequency AND bit depth become irrelevant. The same material might sound similar even at 8/22kHz. The poor sound quality of recordings is - IMHO - a much more serious issue to address and one that - funny, right - does have an answer. It's a shame music producers don't start by creating material that "might" benefit from an increased resolution first. Material that might be able to swamp a CD's "meager" 95dB of dynamic range.

    Second experience comes from reading books on how to design pre-amplifiers and amplifiers. Douglas Self suggests a 50kHz or so tuned RF (radio frequency) filter should be added to preamplifiers because all circuits exhibit increased distortion at frequencies higher than 20-30kHz and that, combined with inter-modulation and interference from the abundance of IR remotes, cordless phones, cellular phones, bluetooth devices, wireless routers, etc, can affect the performance at the audio range as well as stability. To quote a phrase I read somewhere else, "it is pointless and counter productive to exercise the semiconductors and getting them warmed up osculating at radio frequencies only to affect their linearity in the audio spectrum".

    There is one exception in my perspective of high frequency sampling rates. When I record from LP or tape onto the computer, I always record at a high sampling rate (32/192). For a specific reason though. The click removal s/w I am using as well as Audition's hiss removal algorithms seem to work much much better with more samples to work with. If an analogy is excused, it looks like comparing using a machete (16/44) against using a scalpel and magnifying glasses (32/192). Takes more time to cut pieces away but the precision of the cut is much better. Of course, audio is down sampled back to 16/44 once the processing is done, and sounds terrific.
     
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  19. JoeESP9

    JoeESP9 ESL's & tubes since 83

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    Thanks for this tip. What are you using for pop/click removal?
     
  20. RhythmGJ

    RhythmGJ Super Member

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    And ^^^^ are you removing manually (hi-lite and edit), or relying on a plug-in to do it automatically? It is true that pops and clicks can be removed with no audible evidence remaining if they are edited at the pixel/granular level on a time-line (although a pain-staking process), but that's true at 44.1/16 as well as higher. If the program automatically removes artifacts, maybe it needs more information to discern than a human operator?

    GJ
     

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