.40 Cal get ya anything?

Discussion in 'Sports & Outdoor Adventure' started by jaymanaa, Mar 20, 2017.

  1. Tom Brennan

    Tom Brennan AK Member

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    That the Brits at Isandlwana were overrun because the firing lines ran low on ammunition is controversial and now most historians put the blame on Pulleine having placed his infantry too far out from camp and spread over too wide an area--that there were gaps between the British companies that the Zulus exploited and that enabled them to take the British companies in flank and rear and roll them up. Bad tactics on Pulleine's part.
     
  2. Tom Brennan

    Tom Brennan AK Member

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    Note that some of the extras are armed not with the proper drop-block Martini-Henry rifles but with bolt action Lee-Metford rifles being operated as single shot breech loaders. When they made the movie they had a limited number of Martini rifles and those were given to the characters most prominent in a scene.

    In any event Zulu was one of the coolest guy movies ever made but it's quite historically inaccurate. For instance Bromhead, played by Michael Caine, was deaf and considered quite a dull fellow to boot and Color Sgt. Bourne, played by Nigel Greene as a grizzled veteran soldier of long service was actually only 24 years old and nicknamed "The Kid". Commissary officer Dalton, portrayed as a brave but rather effete fellow, had served in the infantry for 13 years and in the army for 21 years, reaching the rank of sergeant. He was the most experienced soldier on the post and some credit him with the scheme of the defense.

    And Hook, he was a teetotaler and a model soldier, not the rascal the movie made him out to be. But still, it's a really cool movie. And every actor in Wales in in it, despite the fact there were probably more Irishmen than Welshmen in the Garrison, the 24th Foot not being a Welsh regiment at that time. But 13 of the garrison had Irish names, the Irish making up a large proportion of the rankers in the British army at that time.
     
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2017
  3. BigElCat

    BigElCat AK Subscriber Subscriber

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    Thanks for the schooling Tom !

    A Rank....fire...........B Rank....fire........A Rank
     
  4. soundmotor

    soundmotor super modified Subscriber

    WW2: 20,000:1

    Vietnam: 200,000:1

    What the raw number doesn't reflect is that in WW2 soldiers started out less effective, became better as they progressed, and stayed in the combat theater. The War in the Pacific had minimal rotation out. You either won the infrequent lottery and were sent home, were severely injured and could not return to your unit, or were killed. If you were a combat Marine and survived to VJ Day, you were at your most lethal and may have been in combat since Guadalcanal!

    Contrast to Vietnam, a Marine had a 13 month tour of duty w/ 1 month of that as leave. At the end of their tour (and likely when they were becoming the most effective) they were rotated out and replaced by green troops. Present day, the tour of duty can be much longer and multiple years but I would hazard that the majority of time is not spent in combat unlike WW2 or even Vietnam.

    There is more in the book "On Killing" by Col. Grossman.
     
  5. soundmotor

    soundmotor super modified Subscriber

    What's interesting is that the FBI through the 70s issued the S&W Model 27 3.5" in .357 as their standard carry gun. This is a huge gun built on the N-frame .

    If you ever watched the old Quinn-Martin series The FBI, this was one of the guns Efrem Zimbalist Jr. carried -



    [​IMG]

    In the late 70s they went to a more compact .357, the Model 13 built on the K-frame. Perhaps the best .357 wheelgun ever made IMO.

    The shift to lower recoil handguns is directly attributive to the increase in agents (male & female) that could not control the recoil of the .357 -



    [​IMG]

    On the issue of penetration, the 117YO Colt 1900 in .38 ACP (9x23) had astounding penetration. I recall reading in American Hunter years back that the .38 ACP nearly matched the .357 in 1/2" pine board penetration. This was comparing early 1900 military trials data decades later to the .357. The article also noted that the Colt 1900 & up were favored dangerous game backup guns used for either the coup de gras shot or if the hunter could not reload, dropped double rifle while running, etc. from a charging animal. There were examples of elephants taken down at close range with it (although I'd have to call those horseshoe up the ass shots) -

    I hope to track one of the pre-1911s in w/ 6" barrel in this caliber some day -


    [​IMG]


    Finally to bring it full circle, the original .40 cal, the .38-40 (.401 bullet, black powder) stats -

    .38-40, 180 gr. bullet - Velocity: 1,160 fps, Muzzle Energy: 538 ft.lbs.

    vs.

    .40 S&W, 180 gr. bullet - Velocity: 1,000, Muzzle Energy: 400 ft. lbs.

    How far we've come...


    [​IMG]

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.38-40_Winchester

    http://www.ballistics101.com/40_caliber_sw.php
     
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  6. elcoholic

    elcoholic Just Nevermind Subscriber

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    I would think the M-16 vs the M-1, helicopter gunships, jungle fighting, etc contributed as well.
     
  7. soundmotor

    soundmotor super modified Subscriber

    No more so than ship & plane borne AA not to mention fighter plane to plane during WW2. There were nearly 100K fighters built, 15K were Thunderbolts w/ (8) .50 cal.!
     
  8. rnorton

    rnorton Super Member

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    In Nam, Charley was good at recovering wounded and dead, often leaving no bodies to count. No body counts made Westmoreland's head explode. They were the only metric of success that he understood, So we were ordered to divide the number of rounds fired and divide it by 15 for our scorecard entries. Most of the guys in my outfit probably fired 1000+ rounds for one hit. Army marksmanship training was just awful. By 1970, the accumulated "body count" exceeded the entire population of North and South Viet Nam, leading to a famous headline in the Daily Telegraph about how the war must be over since we had killed every Vietnamese. I was appalled by the awful US marksmanship.

    I was the guy that my battalion used to send to the perimeter of our base (Camp McDermott) to take out the occasional sniper with my scoped M-14.. Throughout my entire tour I never shot at anyone who didn't shoot at me or my friends first.

    50 years later, I can still put 10 out of 10 through a 2" hole at 100M but I'm using a better rifle these days.
     
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  9. BigElCat

    BigElCat AK Subscriber Subscriber

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    I'm a generation younger, so I didn't have to go to any of the wars.

    My buddy, Mike, was a helicopter door gunner in Nam. He said he fired "thousands upon thousands of rounds into the jungle." I asked him if he scored any kills and he said he "had no way of knowing, and that he was better off not knowing".

    He said he returned fire on "anything that flashed".
     
  10. Ross6860

    Ross6860 AK Subscriber Subscriber

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    I did not read all the posts so I apologize if I'm beating a dead horse.

    I sold my only .40 and all my ammo in order to get rid of a "bastard caliber", at least for me. The pistol was an excellent Walther P99, which I do miss (I love the de-cocker and second strike option).

    With the new 9mm bullets I get more rounds and good terminal ballistics.

    If I need "bigger" I have .45 ACP pistols and revolvers, and .45 LC and .357 magnum revolvers.

    Just my 2 cents. The .40 didn't fit my personal needs. Besides, the handgun is only for fighting your way to your rifle;)

    FWIW the FBI went back to 9mm and dropped the .40, not that it means anything.
     
  11. pustelniakr

    pustelniakr Silver Miner at Large Subscriber

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    It sure was easier to get .40, over 9mm and .45, during the ammo famine of recent years.

    Enjoy,
    Rich P
     
  12. MaxxVolume

    MaxxVolume Super Member

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    I definitely like semi-autos, but I`ve always had a soft spot for revolvers since way back. This N-frame 3-inch snubby in .45 ACP feels great in the hand, shoots nice too !

    upload_2017-4-22_23-44-16.png
     
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  13. MaxxVolume

    MaxxVolume Super Member

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    I have a pretty good work-around for that particular problem....

    upload_2017-4-23_0-1-33.png
     
    Last edited: Apr 22, 2017
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  14. MaxxVolume

    MaxxVolume Super Member

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  15. soundmotor

    soundmotor super modified Subscriber

    I used to shoot my .357 most. Now it's my S&W 25-2 (.45ACP) or Ruger Blackhawk (.45LC). I probably shoot the Blackhawk the more. Slow & deliberate, 50 goes all day.

    Heh, the rifles get the most use though. Just more fun, and loud, and long distance. There may be one of these in the future stable, a Colt Lightning clone .45LC -[​IMG]
     
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  16. soundmotor

    soundmotor super modified Subscriber

    That is a beautiful piece but man, that's gotta pull your pants down. I have a 686 L-frame with 2.5" barrel. It is a mess to carry in a high ride holster.

    It makes me regret an awful trade I made when I dumped my Model 19 2.5" for something else, sigh -


    [​IMG]
     
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  17. Tom Brennan

    Tom Brennan AK Member

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    I find my pistols, a 38 special snubnose S&W and a Ruger American 9mm, no fun to shoot, none at all. They're intended for self defense and my wife and I shoot them simply to gain proficiency. They're tools, like hammers.

    We have fun with our Ruger .22 rifles, those are a kick.
     
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  18. Alobar

    Alobar Flight of the Cosmic Hippie. Subscriber

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    What a fun gun thread this has morphed into!
    As for protection from predators of the human variety we have less need here in my area of Alaska, but the 1000+lb variety "jaws n claws" there is a much greater need. Brown bears show up almost anywhere. In my neighborhood on my property, even in our little town. They are much more frequent near the salmon streams and blue berry bushes where we must try to share the land without anyone getting hurt.

    The first photo is of the revolvers I now own. The Single action on top is a 44 magnum that I have carried when hiking in areas less frequented by bears fopr the past several years. 44 Mag is pretty minimal at stopping a large brown bear however so have of late been trying to figure out a better gun solution that can shoot heavier bullets than the 44 (I shoot 320gr hard cast in the 44). I thought about getting a bigger caliber in a single action such as a 475 Linebaugh, but I also know that I will be more likely to carry something with a smaller barrel that conceals well (I don't like making a big fuss to the world that I am carrying a gun). Even the best bear gun there is is worthless if it is left at home.

    So this year I bought a Ruger "Alaskan" in 454 Casull and a pancake holster for it. It carries fairly easy for me, but I suppose it would be too heavy to carry for self defense in more urban areas. The 2.5" barrel takes a hit in the ballistic dept, but the payoff is probably worth it. It will shoot a 360 gr hard cast at around 1200 fps which is enough to stop a bear from 20 feet or so provided I can hit it in a good spot. Chances are you will only get a shot or 2. I know 20 feet is very close, but you have to give it a chance to do its false charge which usually ends at 25 to 30 feet. If they are coming past that one had better be ready to defend one's self!
    Capture.JPG



    Now there are places around here within a 20 mile radius of home where the chances of bear encounters shoot up dramatically. You are entering their domain rather than the other way around. I never go in there with just a revolver, and these lever action rifles are fast, light and powerful, and shoot heavy lead. The first one is also a 454 Casull like the Alaskan revolver. Its a Winchester model 92 clone, made by Rossi. It is my favorite gun. Very light weight, and will shoot the same ammo as the Ruger Alaskan but instead of 1200 fps, it is around 1750 fps out of its 20" barrel.It holds 9 rounds of 454 Casull (10 45 Colt) in its magazine tube.

    The other one is a Marlin "Guide Gun". A short 18.5" barrel version of their model 1895, caliber is 45/70 Govt. This cartridge has been around since 1873 but only in the past 45 or so years has it been loaded to the pressures that the modern guns are built to withstand. With this gun my bear protection load is a huge 520gr hard cast, traveling at 1500 fps, could go through a bear, or a buffalo from end to end and keep on traveling. I have seen it penetrate through a 20" tree stump! I only carry this one where bear encounter chances are very high. Its recoil is brutal. It holds 4 rounds in the magazine tube.
    Capture1.JPG
     
    Last edited: Apr 23, 2017
  19. MaxxVolume

    MaxxVolume Super Member

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    Yes Sir !!!
    Having the right tool for the job is critical in your neighborhood....
     
  20. Alobar

    Alobar Flight of the Cosmic Hippie. Subscriber

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    Yeah, particularly in these cases you often never get a second chance to make a good first impression!
     

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