A Baseless Klipschorn claim

Discussion in 'The Klipsch Korner' started by tin_ear, Oct 14, 2009.

  1. tin_ear

    tin_ear Active Member

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    A Baseless Klipschorn claim UPDATE

    Perhaps that should be "bass-less"..

    This is in reference to my recent K-horn score in the Yay-yuss thread.

    Thanks! to all of you who have encouraged me and congratulated my trade for the Khorns!

    I'm super-glad I got them. There's more to do, though. I've got to do some studying, investigating if you will... and I'm gonna need some help!
    Here's the deal:

    1.) Since I got these I have been super busy with work and other things and in fact I am out of the country right now but returning soon.

    2.) due to the above, I've not really had any time to really enjoy them but hope to soon. But I've been thinking about it a lot!

    3.) This is the troublesome part, with the minimal time I've had with my dream speakers, I'm feeling um...disappointed. Why? well, I have to ask, where's the bass? Yeah, I know, Khorns are supposed to be the root of all bass, right? I mean, you don't need a sub cuz the sub can't get as low, right? Now, please, don't misunderstand, I am fully aware that they weren't delivering the goods for Mark and I (we all) assumed it was the fish tank. But I was trading for them regardless of the cause of the issue and fully aware that there could be some other cause. I am not in ANY WAY dissatisfied with the deal! I've got my Khorns an I ain't letting them go!

    4.) With that said, I need to figure out how to determine if the lack of bass is real or just in my head. How do I determine objectively if they are performing or not?
    SPL meter? Scope? Subjectively, the 19s would blow these away. Same source, same room, regardless of listening position. I know that's not supposed to be the case; the Khorns should be able to get lower and provide much more grunt than the 19s, I think.
    How bad is it, you ask? The first evening home, I actually disconnected the woofs just to prove they were even firing! They were.
    I have to figure out just how far off the mark they are and how to fix them.
    I'm sure everyone will suggest Bobs x-o and I'll probably do that, but my understanding (please correct me) is that the x-os don't really have anything to do with the very bottom end, right? Is there anyway that the old x-os or their caps/components could actually cripple woofer function?

    5. I have found that they can develop pretty good bass IF I crank the Onkyo's bass control to +8db! But that's just wrong. It's increased pressure level but reduced SQ at that setting it seems.

    6. Lets talk about the room, pictured below. the wall with the TV is 14 wide. The left wall is 20 foot and the right wall is 11 foot with the dining room on the right, the room is L-shaped. The walls are drywall, the floor is oak, the 8 foot ceiling is drywall. The left speaker is effected by the window and curtain but for test purposes, I set up a temporary false wall by placing a 4x8 sheet of 1/2" drywall on its side right in that corner, flush up to the Khorn and the TV wall and blocking the window. I did this just to eliminate the window issue while I figure this out. I will likely permanently install a false wall here. The component rack, which can be moved, is an open design which should not hurt the Khorn performance (tell me if I'm wrong here). I believe the room should be adequate.

    7. sources: I have run them so far only with the Onk and with a Pio SX (686??) receiver in HT duty, FM duty and spinning vinyl and CDs. In the fullness of time (meaning when I get a chance) I will try the Mac 1700 the other Pios and even the G22K; ultimately I will be driving them with the 30As that I also got from Mark. That's a whole 'nuther learning curve, there.

    8. I have only actually heard (other) Klipschorns ONCE. That was a long time ago and no doubt my memory is colored by time. I do remember them having bass....lotsa bass.


    I have spouted a lot of my assumptions here and that may be my biggest issue, just assuming or expecting too much. Please, address any assumption that I have wrong, I want to learn and I want to make my Klipschorns work as intended. Maybe I need to have some AKers come audition them!

    Talk to me, folks, what do I need to do?

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2009

     

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  2. Sir.Byrd

    Sir.Byrd Lunatic Member

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    Try switching the + with the - on the connections of one speaker. Test to see if the bass is better, it should be. Another possibility is that if they have ever been messed with, someone could easily have swapped the + and the - on the woofer terminals or on the crossover but wired the other one correctly.
     
  3. pmsummer

    pmsummer simul justus et peccator Subscriber

    Two or three things, because I had the EXACT same response:

    1) Placement. If that's not a real wall on the left, you'll need the faux corners, or seal the backs like some do.

    2) Replace those caps. You can make no assumptions until they are running at spec.

    3) This is what threw me at first, too, as my K-Horns replaced my Cornwalls, and I worried that the bass was weak. It's a different kind of bass than what a direct radiator or sub throws at you. It's there, it's deep, but it's not "digital-ready rock and roll" like we've kinda gotten used to. I put on my stuff with the 40hz organ notes, and I could feel the room shake before I could hear anything.

    To get it "thumpin'", you gotta put some juice to 'em. These are different than anything you've had before. I had the same concerns with my Frazier Dixielanders (folded-horn bass). It comes in low and smooth, whereas we've gotten used to the bass jumping out at us (IMHO).

    -- stolen from myself on the other thread
     
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2009
  4. bshorey

    bshorey Super Member

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    I'd second this suggestion. If one is out of phase with the other, then they'll surely cancel each other out being that close together.

    I removed the tops when I brought mine home, and was careful to label each wire as I took them apart. I can see how it would be easy to confuse things when reassembling.

    Also, if the PO had problems, then perhaps *he* had them wired improperly and didn't know it. Check all of the wiring going into and coming out of the crossovers.

    If those things are even close to a corner then you shouldn't need an equalizer to enhance the bass.

    HTH,

    bs
     
  5. John James

    John James "Bob's your uncle" (Stolen) Subscriber

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    Is it possible that with all of the hard surfaces the highs are overbearing the lows? (I don't know, just taking a WAG.) :scratch2:
     
  6. Jcricket

    Jcricket not someday, but today Subscriber

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    Hey Rick,
    I agree the Altecs produce way more bass. Actually, to say what I think, is that the altecs produce way less highs. I think the issues I had(now that I have the altecs and can see this), is that my room was just too small. Those khorns put out a huge amoung of highs. In a large room where you might be 20ft away, the energy from the highs would dissipate and equal out with the bass. Also, the bass would develop further. Sure, I am no expert, this is just my gut level feeling on the matter. If anyone thinks I am nuts, PLEASE chime in.

    Maybe an l-pad installed in the back next to the xover??
    Just a thought.
    Mark
     
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2009

     

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  7. Jcricket

    Jcricket not someday, but today Subscriber

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    OH,BTW - A hot tub won't help the bass, unless of course your having some relaxing beverages with it at the same time.:yes:
     
  8. Coytee

    Coytee Super Member

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    Can you pull that curtain back and provide a better picture on the left side?

    Seems Khorns are very picky about being tight into a corner. The less tight they are in a corner, the more you lose lower end extension. Your picture looks like it might not be snugged in on the left.

    Second... I think Khorns (folded bass horns to be more general) might offer a 'different' type of bass than what you might have been previously exposed to. I think the conventional wisdom is it will be tighter and less distorted... at first you might not even think it's there... then after some listening, you will begin to hear it in a different way. you might hear it as perhaps more natural and articulate rather than perhaps more pronounced and as I think I've heard some say, bloated/exaggerated.

    They might be out of phase...that's easy enough for you to track down. So easy that I'd guess it's probably not your issue.

    Remember... in general, the room we have is probably half of the listening experience. With Khorns, they use the corners of the room as their final flair so perhaps with them the room is even more important.

    I have windows pretty close to my corners so when I had my Khorns, the last part of the speaker was intruding into the window molding. I had to make adjustments for that. Show us more of your corners (exposed)
     
  9. Jcricket

    Jcricket not someday, but today Subscriber

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    Rick,
    One more thing. These Khorns will show you exactly what your amp is doing. I tired them with many different amps and sources. Everyone sounded noticibly different. I doubt that this would explain the baseless problem tho;ugh.

    Best I ever heard through those horns was with either those fishers or a maggie tube amp.

    Good luck!
     
  10. botrytis

    botrytis Trying not to be a Small Speaker Hoarder Subscriber

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    Both Altecs and K-horns do not produce bass as well as you think they would - that is because of the drivers and the design. I have heard some beautiful Altec 19's and also a pair of Allisons that soundweasel restored - I was amazed the bass was deeper from the Allisons.

    It is just facts. 33Hz- 17KHz +/- 4db for K-horns so I think the bass is really rolled off.

    Still I would be exstatic to have a pair!
     
  11. tin_ear

    tin_ear Active Member

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    264
    I'm heading for the airport in a few... I hope to resume this after I get home. It might be a few days before I can spend any time at it but I'm taking in all suggestions and I wil post a pic of my temporary false wall setup and consider options for a more permanent version.
    Hopefully I can find out in this thread which of my many assumptions are simply wrong and which are at least somewhat accurate. I've stated too many, I know. I probably need to just make simple list of them for clarity..mebbe later. Gotta get moving so I can get off of this rock!
     

     

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  12. pmsummer

    pmsummer simul justus et peccator Subscriber

  13. tin_ear

    tin_ear Active Member

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    from a distant airport wifi somewhere outside the US:---------

    I did go ahead and order Bob's repair kit (for the AA) X-Os. I spoke with Bob at some length and he affirmed one of my assumptions, that the X-Os had really nothing to do with anything on the bottom. Even if you removed the X-O, the bottom would not change. So I don't expect any resolution of the bass issue resulting from their install; though they will no doubt sound significantly better in every other way.
    Upon reflection later... I'm thinking that the only way for the X-O to have any real effect on the woofer would be if there was a component that was in a position to short across the line and actually load the line...this could do it but I don't know if there is anything in the X-O that could short across the line(?) Shorting to chassis ground could be a possibility in some cases but the chassis in this case is plywood...so that's out.
    I'm still on the hunt for more info and a way to objectively measure the low frequency performance of these speaks.
    You guys are an awesome wealth of info, keep it up!
     
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2009
  14. pmsummer

    pmsummer simul justus et peccator Subscriber

    Correct. The fresh xo won't improve the bass... Except that when the mids and highs are wrong, the bass sounds wrong, too.

    And yes, AA xo (my iPhone bad).
     
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2009
  15. plug-n-play

    plug-n-play Active Member

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    150
    I have 2 pairs of the k-horns, in the garage, same complaint from me, lack of bass, so they sit, they seem to go up in value tho...
    cheers! No more, sold both sets....$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ that is what is cool!!!!!!
     
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2013
  16. hatrack71

    hatrack71 distracted by everything

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    I have a pair of 1996 Klipschorns and that is the way the bass is on these speakers. I use an RBH sub to augment them when I have them in my theater. You may want to try a tube amp. These are similar to LaScalas and are bass shy in my opinion. Tubes will add bottom end and warm everything up. I could never get them to sound to my liking with any of the solid state gear I own and I have a bunch. For some reason the K-horns like tubed Fisher gear.
     

     

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  17. sheltie dave

    sheltie dave Addicted Member

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    If you don't have them snugged into SOLID corners, properly sealed, then don't complain about the lack of bass. If you don't dial the mid and tweeter down a little, and you don't like the way they are voiced, then don't expect overwhelming bass.

    If you do the above two things well, ie situating them well, and tone down the tweets and mids a bit, stand back and be overwhelmed by bass.
     
  18. tin_ear

    tin_ear Active Member

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    264
    Update: Maybe I'm not crazy after all

    First chance to mess with these in a while; I have the Crites X-O rebuild kits on the way, figured I'd do some more investigating. While checking things I popped the bass bin to chase the wiring, and take a peek at the K33. all seems perfect here.
    [​IMG]

    Might as well pull it just to make sure I don't miss something silly, looks good here as well..
    [​IMG]

    Uhm.. wait a minute, what's this?
    [​IMG]


    Surround separation! I hadn't even heard of this in all my Khorn searching!
    [​IMG]

    Slip in some business cards to show extent of the issue.
    [​IMG]


    Well now I HAVE to look in the other cab, of course...WTF?
    [​IMG]

    Apparently a replaced K33? And paralleled wiring.
    No surround issues, at least.

    [​IMG]

    Anyone know anything about this unit?
    [​IMG]


    summary: surround glue needed on the left unit and the right unit doesn't need repairs, but is the Linson K33E a problem? Could the Linson have been a factory replacement?
    I may need to get some of Bob's cast frame jobs, but first I need to see what I can do with what I have.
    I have some surround glue for foam LINKAGE
    I'll use that unless someone has a better product for this.
    Any thoughts?

    Anyone think the surround issue might be the root of my bass-less problem?
     
  19. tensleep

    tensleep AK Subscriber Subscriber

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    Good detective work. I don't really know how the surround separation would affect bass response. While it may not be the big cause, it certainly isn't helping any.

    Me, personally, even though that Linson may be a perfectly good replacement, it would bother me until I knew I had a square magnet Klipsch residing in that cabinet.

    Once you get your driver mismatch/wiring/surround/crossover upgrade sorted out, you might consider biamplifying your K'horns. I have a pair of Klipsch Chorus are a little shy in the bass department when running full range. I biamped and now have better control over the bottom. The improvement is very apparent to me. I usually run flat on all of my tone controls or use my CD direct switch. Then, I attenuate the low frequency amplifier to suit my taste.

    I googled free audio spectrum analyzers and received many hits. Get a good microphone and your laptop and you should be able to do a pretty good layman's job. Microphone placement becomes very important in relationship to the speaker system and the individual drivers. Fellow AKer Zilch is an expert at analyzing speaker systems using scientific methods. You should shoot him a PM - he seems to be willing to help and definitely knows his stuff.
     
  20. BECtoo

    BECtoo Well-Known Member

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    505
    I think that if you squint just right and adjust the angle just right, you can see that Linson is really Klipsch. Just a smeared ink stamping job. That is a late model K-33E. The "E" indicating made be Eminence. The square magnet woofer is an early (before 1985) K-33E also made by Eminence. They are somewhat different in performance, most notably, the Pre-1985 K-33E had a resonate frequency of around 27hz. The later model K-33E has a resonate frequency of about 34hz. Those probably are not a good match.

    Bob Crites
     

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