A Baseless Klipschorn claim

Yet another question: The early woof says "K33" in three places and no "E" anywhere. (I don't know that is necessarily would) and it has a near invisible remnant of the part # 67-77?7


Edit: the missing number is most likely a 4.

P.S. : The repair kit has arrived!! Now to find time to do that part, grandbaby-sitting just now.
 
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That K-33 woof should have had some letter after it. Here is more than you wanted to know. The letter indicates the CITY of manufacture normally of a Klipsch woofer. K-33E = Eminence, Kentucky. K-33P = Paducah, Kentucky. K-33B = Brownsville, Texas. K-33K = Klipsch at Hope, AR (OK I said "Normally" it's the city).

Disclaimer: All below is information told to me by people who should know. I was not there personally.

When Paul Klipsch specified his woofer for the Khorn, (remember this was before Thiel and Small had done their work), he said it must be " A large magnet 15 inch woofer with a resonate frequency below 30hz and preferably below 28hz."

Now, in 1985, when Eminence at last had the ability to stamp out round pieces on a machine for the magnet backing, they went to the round magnet. This in theory, at least, better focuses the magnetic flux giving a more uniform flux in the magnet gap... which allows use of a smaller magnet. But, initial problems in the new process caused reliability problems with the new round magnet woofers. Klipsch allowed them to relax temporarily the "Below 30hz FS spec" so they could get reliability back. Eminence quickly fixed the problem, but Klipsch never asked them to go back to the previous spec. So, to this day, the K-33E is made with the 34hz FS.

The CW1526C woofer has an FS of 26hz.

Bob Crites
 
I'm still on the hunt for more info and a way to objectively measure the low frequency performance of these speaks.

An inexpensive way to do this is to get an SPL meter from Radio Shack (~$50), mount it on a tripod (usaully at about 1 meter away), and play a series of test tones through the speakers.

I use a program called NHC Test Tone Generator on my laptop, plug into the preamp and play a series of tones. You can make a nice little graph of the speakers in-room response this way.

I don't have K-Horns, but I was surpised how ragged the response looked in a real-room environment rather than an anechoic chamber.

Hope this helps

Kirk
 
Kirk thanks for the tip on the software, I'm gonna look into that.

Bob, thanks for the info, and, no, it's not more than I wanted to know,I love this stuff!

I'm trying to glean the answers to the other questions, lets see if I read this correctly:

<<<<<So tell me, does the resonant frequency difference mean that one 'goes lower' than the other?>>>>>Yes, The early type goes lower
<<<<< If I had the option of replacing the pair with factory pieces only, which is the better unit to have (to E or not to E?)>>>>>The early type


<<<<<What is the resonant frequency of your cast frame woofs, and which of the factory versions is your unit most closely matched to?>>>>> 26; The early type



<<<<<Didja expect to be bombarded with nooB questions?>>>>> YES

Did I get that right?
 
Just like in real estate, khorns are all about location, location, location.

The back walls are part of the system. I suspect you're a bit close to the corners and those drapes are sucking bass like a newborn kitten in a litter of nine grabbin' a hind teat.

Grab some some 2x4's, drywall, screws and paint, shrink the room a tad and put on some pipe organ music while you tune the room. You may have to treat the missus to a day-spa while your set this up.
 
Kirk thanks for the tip on the software, I'm gonna look into that.

Bob, thanks for the info, and, no, it's not more than I wanted to know,I love this stuff!

I'm trying to glean the answers to the other questions, lets see if I read this correctly:

<<<<<So tell me, does the resonant frequency difference mean that one 'goes lower' than the other?>>>>>Yes, The early type goes lower
<<<<< If I had the option of replacing the pair with factory pieces only, which is the better unit to have (to E or not to E?)>>>>>The early type


<<<<<What is the resonant frequency of your cast frame woofs, and which of the factory versions is your unit most closely matched to?>>>>> 26; The early type



<<<<<Didja expect to be bombarded with nooB questions?>>>>> YES

Did I get that right?

I pretty much agree with all of that. Trouble is that you can't get a "new" early model K-33E woofer. And used 25 to 35 year old woofers do not necessarily meet their original specs.

The FS deal goes something like this. You have two limits on how low your bass bin can go. One limit is the low frequency cut-off of the box and the other is the FS of the woofer. In the Khorn, the box is supposed to go down to 34hz. I think it is best to operate the woofer well above it's resonate frequency.

Also, we can say that if the box is the limit, and that limit comes at a point above the resonate frequency of the woofer, it is all right to EQ the bass a bit as long as:

1. You don't increase distortion above acceptable levels.

2. You cut off this bass boost above the resonate frequency of the woofer.

What I have said above is that there is no reason you can't take the low frequency response of a Khorn down to below 30hz if you have a woofer that can take that.

Bob Crites
 
Thanks , Bob. Some progress has been made. Sealing the surround definitely helped the bass of the left unit. I had assumed the difference of two was primarily a room issue, but it wasn't. The overall bass issue remains but now it's a more balanced issue. I now am wondering some about the surround of the early unit. It's now reattached of course but I'm thinking that the cloth appeared very thin/porous. I think it needs to be sealed with rubber cement cause it looks like it isn't airtight. I probably should just replace them both with
your units an get it over with. Maybe tomorrow I'll have time for the recap process.
 
Thanks , Bob. Some progress has been made. Sealing the surround definitely helped the bass of the left unit. I had assumed the difference of two was primarily a room issue, but it wasn't. The overall bass issue remains but now it's a more balanced issue. I now am wondering some about the surround of the early unit. It's now reattached of course but I'm thinking that the cloth appeared very thin/porous. I think it needs to be sealed with rubber cement cause it looks like it isn't airtight. I probably should just replace them both with
your units an get it over with. Maybe tomorrow I'll have time for the recap process.

I was just thinking about that separated surround. I have never seen that happen to a K-33. I wonder if that little jewel has been reconed at some point in it's past and if they might have used some generic parts in the recone job. Might be worth a short test to see if the woofer has the right voice coil. If you take the woofer loose from the crossover and measure the resistance of the voice coil with an ohmmeter, should read about 3.5 to 4 ohms. Generic recones usually just put in an 8 ohm voice coil instead of the 4 ohm that it should be.

Bob Crites
 
Good thinkin, bob. And finally something easy to check with a simple objective measurement! Out comes the trusty Fluke 23 and the early square job measures 4.3 ohms the later round mag measures 4.1.
Good thinking, but it looks like its got the right impedance.
Darn good to check, just in case.
 
I got the crossovers rebuilt now using Bob's kit; the kit really makes it simple.
I replaced the rubber washers in the mid horns also although the old ones were OK.

118464309.jpg


It didn't help the bass, of course but the top end is much cleaner now. In fact the brightness is maybe just a bit much, now, but I'm not done tinkering of course. I'm working on a pretty simple fix for the seal on the left speaker.
 
I've read Pioneer TAD TL-1601 bass drivers are the hot ticket for your Klipschorns. Some may think it's blasphemy to put a Japanese driver in an American speaker like the Klipschorn but.... if you need different drivers and want to upgrade them. Why not?
 
I'm not sure that trying a different woofer in the Klipschorn is a good idea. The K-33 was selected for the Klipschorn for a reason. Most often.... it is said that no other woofer is better FOR the Klipschorn. Granted, Bob Crite's woofers are a good replacement because they are closely modeled after the original K-33.

Daniel
 
I've read Pioneer TAD TL-1601 bass drivers are the hot ticket for your Klipschorns. Some may think it's blasphemy to put a Japanese driver in an American speaker like the Klipschorn but.... if you need different drivers and want to upgrade them. Why not?

TAD makes some great drivers, but the TL-1601? That is an 8 ohm driver and the Khorn needs a 4 ohm. Can't imagine that would come close to working right.

Bob Crites
 
I got the crossovers rebuilt now using Bob's kit; the kit really makes it simple.
I replaced the rubber washers in the mid horns also although the old ones were OK.

118464309.jpg


It didn't help the bass, of course but the top end is much cleaner now. In fact the brightness is maybe just a bit much, now, but I'm not done tinkering of course. I'm working on a pretty simple fix for the seal on the left speaker.

Just noticed in your picture that the screw for the 245uH inductor looks like it may be steel. Should be brass or something that is not magnetic. Check it with a magnet. If it is attracted to the magnet, replace it with a brass or stainless steel screw. If the screw is magnetic, it will increase the value of the 245uH inductor to about 3 or 4 hundred uH.

Bob Crites
 
I've read Pioneer TAD TL-1601 bass drivers are the hot ticket for your Klipschorns. Some may think it's blasphemy to put a Japanese driver in an American speaker like the Klipschorn but.... if you need different drivers and want to upgrade them. Why not?

I'd have NO problems putting a TAD 4002 on my HF horn. One day, when Mr. Budget and I are on speaking terms again, I intend to.
 
TAD makes some great drivers, but the TL-1601? That is an 8 ohm driver and the Khorn needs a 4 ohm. Can't imagine that would come close to working right.

Bob Crites

Here is the thread on putting the TL-1601's in the Klipschorns over on the Klipsch forum.

I don't have any experience with it myself. I ran across the thread after doing a little research when I bought mine for my econowave project. Just trying to help out with another idea.
 
Just noticed in your picture that the screw for the 245uH inductor looks like it may be steel. Should be brass or something that is not magnetic. Check it with a magnet. If it is attracted to the magnet, replace it with a brass or stainless steel screw. If the screw is magnetic, it will increase the value of the 245uH inductor to about 3 or 4 hundred uH.

Bob Crites

Interesting bit of information, Bob! I'll check both of them this evening.

Coytee said:
when Mr. Budget and I are on speaking terms again

thats funny stuff, there!
 
Here is the thread on putting the TL-1601's in the Klipschorns over on the Klipsch forum.

I don't have any experience with it myself. I ran across the thread after doing a little research when I bought mine for my econowave project. Just trying to help out with another idea.

The guy using the TADs in that thread is using an electronic crossover. That could work that way. The TAD would hurt the sensitivity but the electronic crossover could balance it all back out. Certainly not just a drop-in mod.

Bob Crites
 
OK, I followed the link on the TAD-in-a-khorn thread and after 4 pages, I've finally got to the "more than you wanted to know" point and gave up. I'm not in that spectrum or that market, thank goodness!
 
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