A Baseless Klipschorn claim
- Thread starter tin_ear
- Start date
Rudy81
Member
When I got my Khorns, I faced some of the same issues you have been facing. My Khorns, as set up now, shake my seat 14" away if I crank it. It took me a while to learn the proper setup to get them to sound properly.
I too have windows just next to the corner, forcing me to come up with a solution other than a 'natural' corner. I came up with two massive false corners that made a huge difference. You can see them on my web page. The other issue, is that a proper seal of the tailboard is difficult to obtain unless you work at it. I tried various materials and finally settled on pipe insulation.
I can assure you that the bass you are searching for can be reproduced by the Khorns down to about 50Hz or so. After that it really rolls off.
I will also suggest you find a way to do something to take the window's reflection effects out of the equation. That window is going to cause you problems in imaging.
Keep working at it...it will pay off.
I too have windows just next to the corner, forcing me to come up with a solution other than a 'natural' corner. I came up with two massive false corners that made a huge difference. You can see them on my web page. The other issue, is that a proper seal of the tailboard is difficult to obtain unless you work at it. I tried various materials and finally settled on pipe insulation.
I can assure you that the bass you are searching for can be reproduced by the Khorns down to about 50Hz or so. After that it really rolls off.
I will also suggest you find a way to do something to take the window's reflection effects out of the equation. That window is going to cause you problems in imaging.
Keep working at it...it will pay off.
Your conjecture re: the damage to the woofer might be right on... can you tell me how to test the flux intensity? Corner sealing: I cannot see how they could possibly be seated in the corners any more solidly. They are very tight against the walls and sealed with weatherstripping. Yes, obviously there is the issue with the window, but if they are not properly sealed in the corners, please do explain.sheltie dave said:
Is drywall considered a sonically 'soft' material? Are three layers of it laminated to 1-1/4" not sufficient?sheltie dave said:
If drywall is inherently unsuitable then I'm just wasting my time...the whole house is drywall. please tell me what wall facing is suitable. If I need to re-do the walls in some new material, I may do it. Just please don't make me install that 1970's pecan paneling!
I have checked out your theater previously and lusted for it, quite frankly. I'm curious about how exactly the wings are made. I have not doubt that it works, but my room is significantly smaller...I'm not sure about the wings for my application. One factor is that the right side corner I have is fine as-is (unless the drywall is a problem)
as shown in the pics in post 42, I have been working on this and they are in fact sealed quite well all the way to the floor, but there may be room for improvement!
Thanks for the encouragement! My plan for the window, before building a false wall, is to first install some thin mini blinds (to provide the appearance viewed from the street) and then install panels about a foot tall fitted to each window opening to make the entire area completely flush and hopefully fully equal to a continuous wall for the height of the bass bin. I'll have to consult with you guys to determine what material would be suitable for the panels. If I can nullify the window by this method, then the corner should be optimized.
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Hey Rick,
I just got caught up on this thread. I had no idea about those woofers. Man am I sorry!!!
How is it coming? Are you going to replace them with a matched set? Did I understand this correctly?
Keep me posted on whats up and if you need something!
Mark
I just got caught up on this thread. I had no idea about those woofers. Man am I sorry!!!
How is it coming? Are you going to replace them with a matched set? Did I understand this correctly?
Keep me posted on whats up and if you need something!
Mark
Mark, no issue!:nono: As stated in the first post, I've finally got my Klipschorns, and I'm not giving them up! No regrets!
I will either replace them with a pair of Bob's cast frame woofs or possibly another square mag K33 if I find one, or a pair of them. Its not in the financial cards at the moment; I'm going to keep working on the wall/window issue until I get that resolved, then look at woofer upgrades. I've got to get the Fishers up and running sometime soon as well!:thmbsp::yes:
Rudy81
Member
My false corners were constructed by sandwiching a piece of 3/4" MDF with two pieces of 4/3" plywood. Glued and screwed. They are heavy and solid. I certainly can understand why not everyone can do that.
Just some suggestions to help along.
The seal! To verify you have a good seal, do the following. Take the top hat off the Khorns, and without replacing the side panels place the bass bin in the corner as you normally do, as tight as you can. Then, shine a flashlight or other bright light down into the cavity formed between the tailboard and the corner of the room. Then, look at the seal from the front of the speaker along both walls. If you can see light, you don't have a good seal. My theory was that if I could see light, the air would also escape back into the very corner and I would lose some of the bass performance. It was then that I settled on the pipe foam. Often times, our walls are not as straight as we think. Also, don't forget to seal the edge of the top hat that goes against the wall. This edge serves as the top portion of the bass bin horn.....don't want to lose bass performance there either.
As far as the window, you can put the blinds on so that it looks normal from the outside and place an absorbent panel next to the reflection area of the mid and high frequencies. The whole idea is to keep those high's from bouncing off the glass surface and ruining your imaging.
Keep at it until you get it just right for your room. I will also note that the bass from a Khorn is different than that from say a La Scala or Belle. The bass from most speakers comes right at you and when strong can be felt as a thump much more so than from the Khorn. The Khorn fills the room with bass that will shake everything. It is just different.
If you happen to live in Texas, drop me a line and perhaps we can get together for a listen. Otherwise, see if you can find another local Klipschead that has Khorns so that you can compare.
Just some suggestions to help along.
The seal! To verify you have a good seal, do the following. Take the top hat off the Khorns, and without replacing the side panels place the bass bin in the corner as you normally do, as tight as you can. Then, shine a flashlight or other bright light down into the cavity formed between the tailboard and the corner of the room. Then, look at the seal from the front of the speaker along both walls. If you can see light, you don't have a good seal. My theory was that if I could see light, the air would also escape back into the very corner and I would lose some of the bass performance. It was then that I settled on the pipe foam. Often times, our walls are not as straight as we think. Also, don't forget to seal the edge of the top hat that goes against the wall. This edge serves as the top portion of the bass bin horn.....don't want to lose bass performance there either.
As far as the window, you can put the blinds on so that it looks normal from the outside and place an absorbent panel next to the reflection area of the mid and high frequencies. The whole idea is to keep those high's from bouncing off the glass surface and ruining your imaging.
Keep at it until you get it just right for your room. I will also note that the bass from a Khorn is different than that from say a La Scala or Belle. The bass from most speakers comes right at you and when strong can be felt as a thump much more so than from the Khorn. The Khorn fills the room with bass that will shake everything. It is just different.
If you happen to live in Texas, drop me a line and perhaps we can get together for a listen. Otherwise, see if you can find another local Klipschead that has Khorns so that you can compare.
alteklipsch
Active Member
Hi Tin_Ear,
I am sorry to hear you are having problems with the bass on your Klipschorns. This can be a very frustrating process. It is hard to separate the opinions from fact on this. I have two thoughts based on years of Klipschorn ownership.
First, I think you should go the false corner route. If you google "klipschorn false corner" there are many creative ways to make them. Basically you need to make them 4' deep and as high as the top of the top section and plenty stiff. I recommend 3/4" plywood front and back with 1"X1" on 8" centers inside with insulation stuffed between them. also they should have lots and lots of screws and glue to make the whole thing as stiff as possible. It should not take too long to build and it will take the room out of the equation. I would also replace the rear wall seal with one that does not have the cutout when using the false corner. The speaker needs as tight a seal as possible to do its thing. If there is no change you can go back to your regular corners. Since the bass travels down the wall on the Klipschorn stiffening the wall only around the corners does little good. The windows make the matter worse. however if most of the energy is reflected off a false corner instead, the house wall will be more like a wave guide and not absorb a lot of the energy of the speaker. Ideally we want all the energy reflected and not absorbed. You would not believe the quality of bass I had when my klipschorns were in the basement and had cement walls for the cabinets.
Second, and possibly more frustrating is that you are one of those guys that likes the right at you direct radiator type of bass. Some direct radiators have quite a bit of bass distortion that also adds to the sense of more bass.
Actually one more thing on false corners, you can play with the distance apart of the speakers, there are definite places where they gel and the bass of both units will cross your listening position best.
I am sorry to hear you are having problems with the bass on your Klipschorns. This can be a very frustrating process. It is hard to separate the opinions from fact on this. I have two thoughts based on years of Klipschorn ownership.
First, I think you should go the false corner route. If you google "klipschorn false corner" there are many creative ways to make them. Basically you need to make them 4' deep and as high as the top of the top section and plenty stiff. I recommend 3/4" plywood front and back with 1"X1" on 8" centers inside with insulation stuffed between them. also they should have lots and lots of screws and glue to make the whole thing as stiff as possible. It should not take too long to build and it will take the room out of the equation. I would also replace the rear wall seal with one that does not have the cutout when using the false corner. The speaker needs as tight a seal as possible to do its thing. If there is no change you can go back to your regular corners. Since the bass travels down the wall on the Klipschorn stiffening the wall only around the corners does little good. The windows make the matter worse. however if most of the energy is reflected off a false corner instead, the house wall will be more like a wave guide and not absorb a lot of the energy of the speaker. Ideally we want all the energy reflected and not absorbed. You would not believe the quality of bass I had when my klipschorns were in the basement and had cement walls for the cabinets.
Second, and possibly more frustrating is that you are one of those guys that likes the right at you direct radiator type of bass. Some direct radiators have quite a bit of bass distortion that also adds to the sense of more bass.
Actually one more thing on false corners, you can play with the distance apart of the speakers, there are definite places where they gel and the bass of both units will cross your listening position best.
I haven't seen anyone mention bass traps in this thread. Might they be of help? It seems like a smallish room, perhaps the lack of bass is mostly related to room nodes and less from any deficiency in the speakers themselves or the corners/seals. Seems like the OP has done an OK job (even if not absolutely optimum) of dealing with the installation and should have better bass than he's experiencing. Maybe???
BECtoo
Well-Known Member
One more thing that should be mentioned concerning corners for Khorns is that you could modify your Khorns to be like the 60th Anniversary Khorns. That is to mostly complete the horn by enclosing the back of the cabinet. Then, they work pretty good even if they are not in corners and make sealing to a corner less important if they are in corners.
Bob Crites
Bob Crites
Attachments
Nope, I had to give a little over $500. They need work though. They are solid, but the veneer needs some attention., The cloth on one side should probably be replaced. Well worth it though.
I did test them shortly tonight. They sound much the same as the set I traded you. However, I did some experimenting.
Try this:
Turn the balance completely to one side. Put the unit in mono if possible. Then turn the volum up to a regular listening level. Stand right in front of the speaker. Then back up directly away from the speaker.
When I did this the bass was a little weak at first, once I reached about 17 feet away it started changing a bit. If I could have backed away another couple of feet I think It might have floored me.
Second experiment. Pull the speaker away from the wall. Once again set like above - reasonable listening volume, one channel, and mono. Put your head under the top cap near the exit for the bass - how does it sound. I found the bass to be quite a bit higher there than when in the corner.
My conclusion - room acoustics. The horns are fine.
I haven't a/b with the altecs yet. But, I sure do love the khorns and there open airy mids and highs. Maybe I'll put the top caps on the altec and hook the xsover intp the altec woofer and see waht happens.
Well, there is my brief report.
I did test them shortly tonight. They sound much the same as the set I traded you. However, I did some experimenting.
Try this:
Turn the balance completely to one side. Put the unit in mono if possible. Then turn the volum up to a regular listening level. Stand right in front of the speaker. Then back up directly away from the speaker.
When I did this the bass was a little weak at first, once I reached about 17 feet away it started changing a bit. If I could have backed away another couple of feet I think It might have floored me.
Second experiment. Pull the speaker away from the wall. Once again set like above - reasonable listening volume, one channel, and mono. Put your head under the top cap near the exit for the bass - how does it sound. I found the bass to be quite a bit higher there than when in the corner.
My conclusion - room acoustics. The horns are fine.
I haven't a/b with the altecs yet. But, I sure do love the khorns and there open airy mids and highs. Maybe I'll put the top caps on the altec and hook the xsover intp the altec woofer and see waht happens.
Well, there is my brief report.
Coytee
Super Member
Regardless of bass situation, I'd suggest you are verifying one of the possible shortcomings of the Khorn and that is the offset from the different horn lengths.
I noticed this at 30' where mine sounded distinctly more fabulous. Mind you, they STILL sounded "good" while in the room with them but when I got 30' away (yes, I measured) they became something even more magnificient.
It's a pain in the hiney but I've come to believe that if someone wants to really maximize their Khorns, they should triamp with an active that allows some signal delay between the different horns.
I'll put it to you this way.... do you listen 17' away? (might). Would you prefer your Khorns have this same sound 7' away as they have 17' away? You can push them towards that with some proper delay.
I would not have believed it had I not heard the improvement for myself of what aligning the signal might do (although I never did it with Khorns, it happened when I replaced them with the Jubilees)
How are the panels attached to the k-horns? What is the cloth material?
So I would need panels that make the window flush and at the lower foot or so they should be reflective ( for the bass) and above that, absorptive (for the mid/upper)?
I do happen to live in Texas, Longview in East Texas 75601
Guilty as charged!:yes:alteklipsch said:
Good thinking, maybe something there. I'll need the guru's input on thisJonL said:
Bob, I LOVE the look of those! I am definitely considering that mod. Everyone please tell me what you think of that setup compared to unmodded vs Rudy's way. I think its obvious that Rudy's (& alteklipsch's) way would be optimal...but would the Anniversary Method be close to this, when combined with my wall situation?BECtoo said:
You know I have much of the same problem with my khorns as you do. Today, I am going out to the garage to do some woodworking. I am going to bang out some quick and dirty panels to get an idea what the 60th anniversary mod might sound like. I'll let you know.
I also have an idea for another mod - kind of a cross between the 60th anniversary and the LaScala's. But, that wont be unless the first doesn't work.
TTYL
I also have an idea for another mod - kind of a cross between the 60th anniversary and the LaScala's. But, that wont be unless the first doesn't work.
TTYL
Coytee
Super Member
Piece of cake. Just get an active crossover that is at least 2 in and 6 out. I'm using an Electrovoice Dx38 for biamping, it's only 2 in 4 out BUT.... with TWO of them, could be reconfigured to triamp (probably less expensive to go with a proper 2 in 6 out)
Coytee
Super Member
Interesting. One might suggest that is similar to you liking blondes and we keep showing you redheads.... In other words if you are honestly predispositioned for a certain flavor the other flavor might never honestly appeal to you.
How close are you to Waco, Arlington or Austin?
If reasonable, you should hear the Jubilees as well. With their redirected output being in the front, their bass is more 'at you' than the Khorn might be. They also have some more ease with being in a corner since their backs are also enclosed.
The Jubilees in Waco & Arlington are setup and the guys there would welcome someone over. The Jubilees in Austin are not setup yet so that's currently not available.
(here I go again, offering other peoples homes for auditions!!)
:thmbsp:
Rick,
YOU HAVE TO GET THOSE WORKING
I have been messing with mine - same issues as you. I finally have gotten some real bass. OMG!:jawdrop:
What I did was put one in a corner that I knew was good. Not great, but good. I then took the other one and moved it about 6 feet away(just because it was a convienent location). If you measure the base section, it is right at 39" tall. I cut two panels out of 1/4" plywood. Each panel is 39" x 20". I then used painter tape(blue masking tape) and taped each panel on the back. You'll notic the panel is about 4" wider than needed.
I hooked them up and stood next to them - CRAPPY!
I backed up 6'- good. Backed up to 9' - whoa! I then walked over to my wife on the other side of the room, I about wet my pants. Base Like I have never heard before. Deep and rich and mellow.
Don't give up on these. Makes some cheapy panels just to get an idea of what you have to do - then go and builsd some nice ones.
I plan on trying to add two more panels to the existing ones I taped on. I am goin to put them on the outer edge and roatoe the in and out thus creating a variable reflecting surface and see what this does. May go bust, but it may direst some of the base to me to. We'll see. Let me know what you think and if you come up with any solutions.
I plan on taking mine completely out of the corners, well at least not using the corner, but rather set them against the wall like a conventional speakers.
Mine are still not situated in the room wher I need them and I imagine I have a ways to go to get these right, but they are worth it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
YOU HAVE TO GET THOSE WORKING
I have been messing with mine - same issues as you. I finally have gotten some real bass. OMG!:jawdrop:
What I did was put one in a corner that I knew was good. Not great, but good. I then took the other one and moved it about 6 feet away(just because it was a convienent location). If you measure the base section, it is right at 39" tall. I cut two panels out of 1/4" plywood. Each panel is 39" x 20". I then used painter tape(blue masking tape) and taped each panel on the back. You'll notic the panel is about 4" wider than needed.
I hooked them up and stood next to them - CRAPPY!
I backed up 6'- good. Backed up to 9' - whoa! I then walked over to my wife on the other side of the room, I about wet my pants. Base Like I have never heard before. Deep and rich and mellow.
Don't give up on these. Makes some cheapy panels just to get an idea of what you have to do - then go and builsd some nice ones.
I plan on trying to add two more panels to the existing ones I taped on. I am goin to put them on the outer edge and roatoe the in and out thus creating a variable reflecting surface and see what this does. May go bust, but it may direst some of the base to me to. We'll see. Let me know what you think and if you come up with any solutions.
I plan on taking mine completely out of the corners, well at least not using the corner, but rather set them against the wall like a conventional speakers.
Mine are still not situated in the room wher I need them and I imagine I have a ways to go to get these right, but they are worth it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
