A couple surrounds, some gentle cleaning, a capacitor and I'm ready to listen

So the HK sounds 3dB louder than a 20 watt amplifier? At all volume settings, or just at maximum?

I am under the impression that a 20 watt amp and a 40 watt amp are putting out exactly the same amount of power at a given loudness, assuming the same speakers and no clipping.

The ability to gauge an amplifier's rated output by ear is impressive.


By all means do not let me sway your impression!
 
Hmm. At a given loudness, it would seem to me that the same speakers will draw precisely the same amount of current from either a 20 or 40 watt amp (again, assuming the amps are not clipping).

The 40 watt amplifier, of course, will be able to get just a bit louder (3dB) before clipping.

In any case, I was just curious as to what it is that made you conclude that your 20 watt amp sounds like a 40 watt amp? I certainly understand that different amps may have different sonic characteristics, but have never been able to correlate such differences to power ratings.

Sounds as if you may simply like the sound of the HK over the Denon. No surprise there.
 
Last edited:
Speakers are not a "static load" and amplifiers have different topologies and capabilities. Watts are a measure of power at a given resistance, and often at just a 1 KHz test tone signal. I have two Carver M 4.0t amps 375 wpc/8 ohms, two Aragon 4004 amps 200 wpc/8 ohms, and a quad of Krell KMA 160 amps 160 watts each @ 8 ohms. The Aragons and Krells will eat the Carvers for lunch and then want "seconds". The Aragons are 4004's = 400 wpc/4 ohms. The Krells are rated at 1280 watts each @ 1 ohm, and can be tweaked to run under 1 ohm load (as per the factory manual). All amps are not created equal.
 
Yes, that is true. Speakers are not a static load.

However, given the same speakers and with volume knobs set to allow the same voltage, the current draw will be the same (again, up to the limits of the amp)....regardless of amp topology. At least, this is my understanding (which may well be wrong...please correct me if I am).

And yes, all amps are not created equal. The power supply is the most expensive element, and this is where the money is best spent. I would certainly rather have an amp rated at 20 watts/8 ohms and 80 watts at 2 ohms vs one rated at 20 watts/8 ohms and 25 watts at 4 ohms, as the former will provide a more linear response with more demanding loads.
 
Last edited:
Hmm. At a given loudness, it would seem to me that the same speakers will draw precisely the same amount of current from either a 20 or 40 watt amp (again, assuming the amps are not clipping).

The 40 watt amplifier, of course, will be able to get just a bit louder (3dB) before clipping.

In any case, I was just curious as to what it is that made you conclude that your 20 watt amp sounds like a 40 watt amp? I certainly understand that different amps may have different sonic characteristics, but have never been able to correlate such differences to power ratings.

Sounds as if you may simply like the sound of the HK over the Denon. No surprise there.

I am not sure what you are trying to get at today..... That I should not be posting such statements, or are you looking to make sure wrong statements aren't posted here.....

Here's an article I just found ..... I am not alone in my assessment... you do know 10db is twice as much .... why is 3 db so minimal ? its not.

This was evident when in 1977 the Boston Audio Society performed a comparison study in which the baby Harman Kardon 330C receiver rated at only 20 watts RMS per channel outclassed a 75 watt RMS per channel Marantz 2275 in some tests!

HK330B.jpg

The Harman Kardon 330 – Marantz Killer???

Harman Kardon stated in their advertising material the conservative nature of the power ratings on these models, and they were right! Very rarely will you need to take the volume past 33% on this unit! (with exception to party animals and rock stars of course).
 
So you are saying that an amp correctly rated at 20 watts will indeed put out as much power into a given load as a correctly rated 40 watt amp into that same load?

I think you said earlier that the HK amp sounded more like 40 watts than 20 watts. I just wanted to understand how you came to that conclusion, specifically as regards power output (vs other characteristics which might indeed give it a more appealing sound).

And yes, I think I have a pretty good handle on the exponential relationship between power and loudness. 3dB is generally considered the smallest change in SPL to be clearly noticeable to someone with normal hearing ability and represents a halving or doubling of power, whereas a change of 10dB is a change in SPL of roughly double or half (and a change in power of 10x).

As for relationship between voltage and the position of the volume knob; the voltage at a given point is highly variable from one unit to another and not particularly useful as a means of determining relative output from one amp to another.

And of course if you set the volume at the point where the amp is putting out its rated power on a continuous basis, a music signal will almost assuredly be heavily clipped due to transient peaks (which I believe are not a factor in sine wave-based measurements).
 
Last edited:
So you are saying that an amp correctly rated at 20 watts will indeed put out as much power into a given load as a correctly rated 40 watt amp into that same load?

I think you said earlier that the HK amp sounded more like 40 watts than 20 watts. I just wanted to understand how you came to that conclusion, specifically as regards power output (vs other characteristics which might indeed give it a more appealing sound).

And yes, I think I have a pretty good handle on the exponential relationship between power and loudness. 3dB is generally considered the smallest change in SPL to be clearly noticeable to someone with normal hearing ability and represents a halving or doubling of power, whereas a change of 10dB is a change in SPL of roughly double or half (and a change in power of 10x).


I am saying it is not correctly rated......
 
Which kind of loops back to my original question...how did you conclude, without measurements, that it sounded like a 40 watt amp and not a 20 watt amp? Just trying to understand what differences one should expect to hear?

BTW, I too find the 330 series to be quite pleasant, and would expect them to take some of the hard edges off of those speakers. So I'm not at all surprised that you like its sound better than the Denon...good synergy.
 
So you are saying that an amp correctly rated at 20 watts will indeed put out as much power into a given load as a correctly rated 40 watt amp into that same load?

I think you said earlier that the HK amp sounded more like 40 watts than 20 watts. I just wanted to understand how you came to that conclusion, specifically as regards power output (vs other characteristics which might indeed give it a more appealing sound).

And yes, I think I have a pretty good handle on the exponential relationship between power and loudness. 3dB is generally considered the smallest change in SPL to be clearly noticeable to someone with normal hearing ability and represents a halving or doubling of power, whereas a change of 10dB is a change in SPL of roughly double or half (and a change in power of 10x).

As for relationship between voltage and the position of the volume knob; the voltage at a given point is highly variable from one unit to another and not particularly useful as a means of determining relative output from one amp to another.

And of course if you set the volume at the point where the amp is putting out its rated power on a continuous basis, a music signal will almost assuredly be heavily clipped.
Which kind of loops back to my original question...how did you conclude, without measurements, that it sounded like a 40 watt amp and not a 20 watt amp? Just trying to understand what differences one should expect to hear?

BTW, I too find the 330 series to be quite pleasant, and would expect them to take some of the hard edges off of those speakers. So I'm not at all surprised that you like its sound better than the Denon...good synergy.


Years of playing... hundreds of volume knobs and their relation to what I hear.. the point of distortion and loudness, the look on my cats face when a certain level is reached, the overall quality of sound as the level increases.... Is the amp struggling? Is the amp enjoying the increase? ..... it's instinct and gut and experience.... I have "the ear" as some would say..
 
As I said earlier - impressive. I've owned a lot of amps, and worked on many more, and am quite sure I could not identify one rated at 40 vs one rated at 20 based on how they sound, how the volume knob works, etc.

Then again, I don't have a cat.
 
As I said earlier - impressive. I've owned a lot of amps, and worked on many more, and am quite sure I could not identify one rated at 40 vs one rated at 20 based on how they sound, how the volume knob works, etc.

Then again, I don't have a cat.


LOL..... all I said was it sounds like a 40 watt.... it doesn't mean anything..... it's like saying "it's never been this hot out"... it was a relative term only useful to my reality....
 
Back
Top Bottom