A little gun porn

Discussion in 'Sports & Outdoor Adventure' started by Yamaki, Mar 2, 2016.

  1. Tom Brennan

    Tom Brennan AK Member Subscriber

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    The Continentals at Cowpens, being regular troops of the line, were armed with muskets, not rifles. Generally Continentals were armed with the French .69 Charleville musket, though some used the British .75 Brown Bess. Some American militia were armed with rifles.

    The American rebels won at Cowpens because of Morgan’s superior tactics, tactics which played to British aggression and speed on the battlefield and successfully wrong footed them, not because the British were outgunned by superior weaponry. In fact the musket was far superior to the rifle for combat of the time and remained so until the invention of the expanding bullet and rifle musket in the mid 19th Century. And many modern historians of the American Civil War such as Hess and Griffith think that even the effect of rifle muskets such as the Springfield and P53 Enfield has been vastly overstated and that in fact such weapons, in American hands anyway, on American battlefields, were little more deadly than conventional muskets.

    I think the wheels started coming off the British effort in 1777 with the defeat of Burgoyne at Saratoga and the failure of St. Leger’s Mohawk Valley offensive, stymied at Fort Stanwix. It was because of British failure in the North the British went to their Southern Strategy, the British thinking the South, more Loyalist than the North, more fertile ground for their efforts, which it was. But not fertile enough, obviously. Anyway, the Southern campaigns have a very interesting cast of characters and the leaders on both sides were very capable men and IMO Cornwallis was the boldest and best British field commander of the war. He was also later a very capable and enlightened (for the times) governor in both Ireland and India. And of course Greene was one of the greatest generals in American history.

    Last summer we visited Ninety Six in South Carolina, where Greene unsuccessfully besieged a Loyalist garrison. Some of the British fortifications are stabilized originals, others, and the American saps and parallels are restorations.

    8DB4754B-F0C6-460B-9FBA-7D443830DAAB.jpeg
     
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2018
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  2. Tom Brennan

    Tom Brennan AK Member Subscriber

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    While off topic, I found these two fairly recent books very enlightening on the British view of and reaction to our rebellion against Britain. “With Zeal...” debunks the American myth that the British army failed to adapt to conditions in North America and “The Men..” studies the political, logistical and strategic elements from the British point of view.

    https://www.amazon.com/Zeal-Bayonet...7&sr=1-1&keywords=with+zeal+and+bayonets+only


    https://www.amazon.com/America-Walp...3005&sr=1-1&keywords=the+men+who+lost+america
     
  3. Alobar

    Alobar Pulling out of the Last Chance Texaco.. Subscriber

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    That rig is essentially a gun with wings!
     
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  4. John James

    John James "Bob's your uncle" (Stolen) Subscriber

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    ^ ^ ^

    That badass rig is essentially a badass gun with wings!

    Fixed that for ya! :)

    (PG, please give your son my thanks!)
     
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  5. Poultrygeist

    Poultrygeist Addicted Member



    http://www.gaffneyledger.com/news/2006-07-05/Local_News/005.html
     
  6. Poultrygeist

    Poultrygeist Addicted Member

    Appreciate that. He saw lots of combat as a "hog-driver" but says very little about it. It's interesting that the A10 is the only plane in the USAF that has no trainer version. The first time you strap it on you solo. He's now training new pilots at Columbus, Miss.
     
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  7. Poultrygeist

    Poultrygeist Addicted Member

  8. Poultrygeist

    Poultrygeist Addicted Member

    Tom,

    Here's a quote I found which also contradicts your statement that our forces did not use rifles at Cowpens.

    "On the morning of January 17, 1781, Morgan and his men engaged Tarleton in the Battle of Cowpens. Morgan was joined by other American militia forces. Morgan formulated his plan around Tarleton’s despise and quick, rash action toward the militia, and his advantage of the longer accuracy and range offered by his riflemen. Morgan positioned his riflemen to the front, followed by the militia, and regulars at the hilltop. The first two units of riflemen were to retreat as soon as they were seriously threatened, but only after they had taken several deadly shots on the advancing British. The strategy behind this caused a reckless charge from the British"

    In my college days at Wofford located near Cowpens our ROTC drill team was called "Morgan's Rifles". Googling Daniel Morgan's Riflemen can also give you more information on the topic.
     
  9. Tom Brennan

    Tom Brennan AK Member Subscriber

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    I’ve acknowledged that some militia were armed with rifles, I was addressing your statement that the American regulars, the Continentals, used them.

    Morgan’s genius was in giving the militia permission to run away after they’d fired a shot or two. He knew they were going to run anyway and knowing they could run away they were steady for a short time and having run before being terrified they hung around the edge of the battle and were able to rally and rejoin the fight—most of the time when militia broke they fled pell mell.

    The British had great tactical success against us during the American War using bold, aggressive tactics. They put to use the lessons learned fighting the French and the Indians in the Seven Years War and Pontiac’s War and fought in a open order 2 ranks deep with a yard or even two between files. These open formations moved quickly and fluidly on the battlefield but had less firepower than tight formations of 3 ranks. Thus the British put an emphasis on the shock power of the bayonet. An American unit encountering a British one would receive fire from the British light infantry acting as skirmishers and then be immediately attacked by the British main line, moving at a jog, not stopping to fire but pressing in quickly and relentlessly to use the bayonet. These tactics usually saw the Americans off, indeed sometimes the skirmishing screen of “light Bobs”, men chosen for their intelligence and aggression, would see the Americans off before the main line was engaged. Note that British regulars in America often cut their coats down into shell jackets, cropped their hair short, wore their hats slouched and carried hatchets and tomahawks. They were skilled at skirmishing, fighting in broken and wooded country and at flanking and bushwhacking. Not at all like our national mythology of the clumsy, overburdened Redcoat.

    This worked well for a long no time but the danger was that as the American regulars gained in discipline, skill and morale this aggression could be turned against them. And that’s just what Morgan did, using his militia to set the trap and “ambushing” the British with his regulars, regulars who were finally able to stand toe to toe against the British regulars. Morgan also used his cavalry well, something rare in our history as Americans throughout our history were usually pretty mediocre cavalry and not up to European standards. I think during the gun powder age the best cavalry in the world were the Poles.
     
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  10. Poultrygeist

    Poultrygeist Addicted Member

    "The Battle of Cowpens" by William Ranney hangs in the S.C. Senate Chamber. I see it everyday as I work there. The man on the white horse is Col. William Washington a cousin of George Washington and commander of our cavalry at Cowpens. He's engaged with Col. Tarleton known in S.C. as the butcher. The villain in "The Patriot" movie is based on Tarleton's savagery in the Carolina's. Search the meaning of "Tarleton's Quarter". This treasured painting is one of the few to portray an African American in combat during the Revolution. Many believe this 14 yr old bugler to be the real hero as he is credited with saving the life of Col. Washington.

    [​IMG]
     
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  11. Tom Brennan

    Tom Brennan AK Member Subscriber

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    Yes, I’m familiar with that painting, I first saw it reproduced it a kid’s history book by American Heritage that I had in the 1950s.

    Have you been to the NPS park at Ninety Six? It’s a little gem.
     
  12. Poultrygeist

    Poultrygeist Addicted Member

    Been to Ninety Six several times and to the historic Star Fort.

    Many old settlements and areas in S.C. used distances in their name such as Nine Times, Three and Twenty, Six Mile and Twelve Mile River. It was thought ( mistakenly so ) that Ninety Six was 96 miles

    from Keowee, which at one time was the largest Cherokee Nation on our continent. Before the Keowee lands were flooded in the 1970's my father participated in the archaeological digs there. Still today

    farmers uncover cannon balls fired from Fort Prince George.

    https://patch.com/south-carolina/easley/fort-prince-george-is-missing-link-in-sc-s-history

    You could spend months in South Carolina and still not see half it's historic sites. FWIW Historic Charleston is our country's number one

    tourist destination city, surpassing SF several years ago.
     
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  13. Poultrygeist

    Poultrygeist Addicted Member

    The John Holmes of gun porn - the Great Gustav

    [​IMG]
     
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  14. Tom Brennan

    Tom Brennan AK Member Subscriber

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  15. chinacave

    chinacave Its Like a Jungle Sometimes; It makes me Wonder Subscriber

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  16. usedto

    usedto Lunatic Member

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    I'm just waiting 'til I can afford to reload this:

    Cartridge.jpg
     
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  17. Bob T

    Bob T AK Subscriber Subscriber

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    Thanks for this...I've read a lot of history surrounding the Revolutionary war, but not these. I ordered up "With Zeal and Bayonets Only" last week and started in yesterday. Interesting perspective. I will probably get the other one soon.
     
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  18. soundmotor

    soundmotor super modified Subscriber

    I have an original (2) volume set that chronicles every battle from the 1700s up to ~1860. The first volume is nearly all about the Revolution and details (in great detail) how the British dealt with insurgency. With zeal is correct as were the Green Dragoons depicted in The Patriot. The British were bloody and a favorite tactic was the midnight bayonet attack on a family. One only needed to be suspected of sedition to be visited. A squad would break into a dwelling and bayonet anyone inside including infants in the crib. The point was to instill that anyone associated with the rebellion would be put down in this way. It did not matter if you were innocent as mistakes would be made to insure order. Over time it had the opposite effect and if anything rallied more to the rebellion than against it.

    Another war, similar issue, was King Philip's War (1600s in New England). When King Philip (Metacomet) began to push back against the colonials some of his men massacred a family and chopped them up, hanging their parts in the trees. To these men it was the most horrifying thing that could happen to anyone and should have scared the daylights out of them. If they were natives that is. Fatal flaw, they did not understand who they were fighting and the colonials got serious. Ultimately this was the result -

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Swamp_Fight
     
  19. 2011etec

    2011etec Super Member

    I see your Gustav and raise you one m65 atomic cannon.[​IMG]
     
  20. 2011etec

    2011etec Super Member

    Fantasy rifle for me.

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 16, 2018 at 3:11 PM

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