AGI 511 Preamp not working

macaltec

Metal Master
I just picked up an AGI 511 Preamp and I am not getting any sound through it. Can't find a schematic and couldn't do much with it even if I had it. Power supply seems to be working. Got power through the bridge rectifier and caps and transistors but then I'm not very sure of what my findings actually indicate. I need some help. Thanks for your responses and any help you can provide.
 
Hello macaltec, found a schematic on HiFi Engine.com. No service manual yet. If I find one I'll post the information here.
 
http://www.hifiengine.com/hfe_downloads/index.php?agi/agi_511a_ah_schematics_low_res.pdf

By not getting any sound out, meaning already hooked up to a known good amp, and when you put a known good source signal into say the Tuner or Aux input, and select that source via the corresponding selector button you get no output from the preamp to the amp via the volume control? I assume none of the Tape or Tape monitor or Dubbing switches or other input source switches are pushed in.

Can you post some pics of the preamp, including the front and back panels, and then the top removed showing the circuit board? Then we can see if anyone has been in there before you.
agi-511-fond-degrade.jpg


British back panel
635572DSC8066web.jpg

Here's some pics of what I think is the original looking board:

agi_11.jpg
agi551-4e.jpg
agi553_bb.jpg


This ribbon cable takes all the input signals from a PC board where all the input RCA are solder to and passes them into the main board. My understanding is that board and its connections to the ribbon cable and the RCA plugs they used can become intermittent or troublesome.
AGI_Preamp_ribbon.jpg


Never worked on it but here's a basic circuit analysis - its circa 1976 or so, and the design reflects that era. The main board is well laid out with a double sided board, ground planes and clean tidy design, components were good for the day, note the use of axial electrolytic caps, a lot of small ceramic or possibly tantalum caps (little orange disc guys)

1. page 3 of the schematic - The power supply is a basic transformer producing 18VAC feeding a discrete full wave rectifier bridge and two 500uf smoothing capacitors, one each for the + and - legs. The rectified DC is then passed to a pair of 3.5W pass transistors which are controlled by a Silicon General SG4501 dual (+ and -) voltage regulator chip. That whole section ensures you get a solid referenced +/- 15V output, so at C74+ referenced to ground should be +15VDC, similarly at C76(-) referenced ground should be -15VDC. That is your first step, to ensure the power supply and regulators are working properly. If not, likely you need to recap the power supply, and check the diodes, then the resistors, then the transistors, and if nothing else, the regulator chip.

2. page 2 of the schematic - Shows the input board connections, the selector switching scheme, and the line level preamp section - everything goes through the line level amplifier stage consisting of two LF357 fast op amps (but obsolete by today's standards) and finally through two DC blocking coupling caps at the output (50uf non-polar electrolytics most likely). The LF357's are the two black rectangular 8 pin IC chips in the middle of the board, and likely the two blue axial caps are the output blocking caps.

3. Page 1 of the schematic - Fully devoted to the phono preamp section - Left channel on the schematic left, right channel on the schematic right.
Input from the cartridge is sent to 1/2 of a uA749 dual op-amp where initial parts of the RIAA eq is started, then signal passed to two stages of push-pull symmetrical transistor amp stages where additional RIAA eq and gain are added, leading to the phono outputs in the center of the schematic which then pass to the Phono selector switch and then the line amp.

So the basic troubleshooting would be to check PS voltages, then DeOxit clean all input RCA's (gently), then pushbutton switches, the ribbon cable connection to the board, making sure its firmly seated in the connector base, and possibly try to clean the volume and balance pot. However, the pots look like the very good and common Bourns large sealed pots, so if cannot get a place to spray, then rotate them 20-30 times to try to knock off any oxidation off the internal contacts.

Then use various signal inputs (other than phono) to see if ANY of them work - if at least one does, then the preamp section works, and its an input connection problem. If all the sources still don't work, then you'll need to dig further.
 
mech986, excellent response. Many thanks. Your initial assumptions are correct. I had looked at a schematic before your response and determined that I needed to check voltage out of the SG4501 IC. Upon measuring it seems that is the problem. All of your other thoughts are well noted and will be checked as well. I have ordered a replacement part already. My next question is: Could there be something else wrong that would have caused this component to fail? I do have the proper voltage coming into the component so I feel everything to that point is good.
 
So if you look at the pins of the SG4501, you should be getting 18-21V unregulated DC at pin 7 and pin 8. Almost on principal, I'd replace the C71,75 500uf smoothing caps and watch polarity orientation. Same for C73 and C77 and C74,78 (watch orientation), all of those are stabilizing the voltage. You may also want to change out the two 100ohm resistors and the 560 ohm 2 W resistor. and check the 3.3 ohm resistors to be sure they are not open - if they are, the regulator will not be able to sense any voltage and will not work. Also check pin 1 to be sure its grounded properly. The 1N1004 diodes are safety diodes in case of reverse voltage, are really inexpensive so I would replace those as well, again watching orientation. Are you getting 15vDC at pins 5 and 10? Also check that the 28V light works.

I would make sure that the voltage ratings of the caps on the input side are at least 30V and 50v would be fine. ON the output side, 25V should be oK. I suspect the C73 75 0.01uf are probably ceramic caps, but films should work here fine, just bigger.

check all solder joints to see if they are good or just touch them all up, especially in and out of the SG4501, you have nothing to lose for the moment.

Really, this is a pretty low parts count power supply. If you have the time, you may just consider replacing the parts, maybe even source a couple of the 40391 and 40389 transistors, they're probably inexpensive.
 
No voltage on pins 5 and 10. Voltage was good on pins 7 and 8. Lamp is not lit either.
 
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Glad you made the edit, I was wondering what was going on.

Ok, so you aren't getting any voltage (reference these to ground now) at pin 5 (positive 15V output) and pin 10 (negative 15V output) of the regulator IC. However you get "good" voltage at pin 7 (positive input voltage) and pin 8 (negative input voltage) - what are those DC voltages? Lamp won't be lit unless you get both + and - rails working and switch is in "ON" position. Of course, check the lamp for resistance value instead of open.

Just to be sure, again, I would check the two 3.3 ohm resistors to be sure neither is open, otherwise there is no IC sensing of the output voltage. For sure I would replace the 0.01uf and the 6.8uf output caps as they stabilize the regulator. If this doesn't start the regulator up, then the chip gets replaced.
 
Pin 7, 33.23V
Pin 8, -33.24V
Lamp measures 72 ohms, out of circuit.
Both 3.3 ohm resistors are good.
No voltage on either of the pins 5 and 10
 
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I would test both R71 and 73 100 ohm resistors, and both of the RCA 40389/40391 transistors, the transistors don't seem to be conducting.

Oh, one other thing, disconnect the power supply from the rest of the preamp in case something in the preamp is shorted and pulling down the power supply.
 
R71 and R73 are both good. To disconnect the PS from the rest of the preamp, just pull the 3.3 ohm resistors?????
 
Eh, sorry, no, because it's on one board, double sided at that, not easy to isolate the power supply. Basically, you want to lift the joint connections from the last diodes and 6.8uf caps from the traces that lead out further to the line amp and phono amp. You then would tie the diode and cap connections in space and test there. You have to leave the 3.3 ohm resistors in to allow the sense and stable connections to work to test the regulator.

Did you get the new regulator chip part?
 
if it's more trouble than worth it, then test just the transistors, then sub the chip.
 
Chip should be here any day now. Had to get it from eBay and it shipped from Hong Kong. I has my doubts about it. Can I check the transistors in circuit with no power?
 
I will likely shotgun the whole PS but want to be sure there isn't a problem somewhere else first. Hang in there with me, I never got past the learning curve with this type of repair.
 
Can't test the transistors in circuit, you'd have to dismount the transistors, noting the exact position of the legs with respect to the can (there should be a tab sticking out of the bottom of the can) and the circuit board, then test out of circuit. There's a thread by EchoWars for testing bipolar transistors.
 
I kinda knew the answer but was being hopeful. I will have to look and refresh my memory on how to test them. Gotta wait for the mancave to heat up before I can do anything.
 
Both transistors checked and found to be good. For giggles I measured pins 5 & 10 and 7 & 8 again. I got .35volts on both 5 and 10. The voltage on 10 was not negative. When reverse biasing diodes CR74, 75 I found conductance. Hopefully you can make some sense of this.
 
Well, sounds like the regulator chip is no good. We'll see if there is any improvement with the new chip.

If that doesn't work, suggest using a simple pair of 3 terminal regulator chips (7815 and 7915, pos and neg respectively) Those alone can supply more current than the 5401. The problem is the high input voltage of >30V will make the regulator dissipate up to 15W at 1 amp draw. Having some stouter pass transistors can ease the burden on the regulator and make it just a voltage reference.

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